X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Ivan8ias on October 14, 2017, 08:26:56 PM
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Hello,
I have been using X10 products for decades. I have several WS4777 / CS277 3-way setups working fine, including the ones to my detached garage floodlight. I just installed a 500W halogen fixture and decided to replace the WS4777 switch with a Ws469 relay switch to handle the higher wattage.
Here's where I am having the problem. I am not a novice to house wiring and in fact I had the WS4777 and CS277 for the garage circuit working fine for years. Now I can't get the WS469 to operate in 3-way mode with the companion CS277 slave switch. In the house I have a neutral wire and a hot wire. I have two traveller wires to the garage and the fixture wire in the garage. After a whole day analyzing the problem I finally disconnected the CS277 and jumped the fixture wire with one of the traveller wires and now it obviously works from the house only. I can hear the click of the relay and the green led works.
On the WS469 I hooked up the black wire to the hot wire, the white wire to neutral, the red wire to the traveler wire connected to the red wire of the CS277 and the remaining blue wire from the WS469 to one of the blue wires on the CS277. I connected the remaining blue wire to the lamp fixture.
It does not work. I tried every combination of connecting the CS277. Still no good. What baffles me is, it used to work fine with the WS4777.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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Are you sure you have a Neutral Power Connection. In many three way setups a White is not a real Neutral.
Did you get the Neutral from a bundle of White wires in the rear of the electrical box?
The WS4777 setup stole power through the load so no Neutral was needed at the switch, just the load itself.
Does the WS469 turn On and Off with with its local paddle, with the CS277 in the circuit but the light doesn't go On.
Does the Green LED go On and Off from the WS469 local paddle with the CS277 connected?
If you have a meter with the circuit power OFF. Verify the CS277 is good. There should be a short or very low resistance between the Blue wires and a short between either Blue wire and the Red wire when the switch is pushed.
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Brian, thank you for your reply. I have wired and rewired many houses in the past. I definitely identified the group of wires that I connected the white wire on the WS469 to be neutral. I know that the WS469 3-way connections are different from the WS4777, which I had installed years ago. I took that into consideration when I rewired the WS469. Since the wiring in this old farmhouse is cloth covered rubber, and have no distinguishable colors, I rang out the wires to be sure which were which. The only way that I can get the WS469 to work is to eliminate the CS277 and jump the blue wire coming from the house to the light fixture, essentially making it work as a stand alone switch. The green led functions properly and the garage light turns on and off. I even went so far as to purchase a couple of brand new CS277 switches, and tried that. I even went so far as to pick up a hot lead from elsewhere in the garage and connected it to the blue wire. No matter what combination of wires I tried using the CS277, the garage light either stays constantly on or won't turn on.
I noticed that the pdf of the WS469 manual depicting the 3-way illustration differs from the diagram and instructions that came with the switch (which shows one of the blue wires on the CS277 capped off).
Essentially, the way that they wired the original switches was to have the hot wire at the house and the load wire at the garage, connecting the two switches in a SPDT fashion, using the two "traveller" wires to connect to the switches.
Incidentally, I also currently have two WS469 switches, each as stand-alone, (red wire capped off) controlling my house front and back floodlights, respectively.
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Hi Ivan,
Try ringing out (or better yet measure the resistance if you can) the two blue wires in your CS277. I believe they should be shorted together (according to the diagram in the corner of this schematic (http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ws467.gif)).
I noticed that the pdf of the WS469 manual depicting the 3-way illustration differs from the diagram and instructions that came with the switch (which shows one of the blue wires on the CS277 capped off).
Interesting. Could you scan and post the diagram in the instructions included with your WS469? I would have to check, but I believe the diagram in the one I recently received is the same as is online. That kind of proves my theory that you don't need both blue wires on a CS277, instead they are added to make the wiring easier to understand.
I haven't tried wiring a WS469 in 3-way mode yet (it is next on my to do), so I am curious as to your results. When I get a chance I will Ohm out both a new CS277 I received and an old one I have from an old WS4777 to see if they are different.
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Hi Roger, thanks for your reply. I can't figure out how to attach a file in this message board. I have a pdf of the diagram and instructions that came shipped with the WS469. I haven't had a chance to further test the circuit for resistance, but will later. I am currently working on repairing a Ford backhoe/front end loader, replacing a Ford tractor starter solenoid and rebuilding two lawn tractor carburetors. Life keeps me busy here at the farm. :)
Please let me know how to attach a file, and then if the diagram and instructions are the same as yours. I have currently (no pun intended) the blue wire from the WS469, the red wire from the WS469, hot wire from the floodlight, neutral wire from the floodlight and a live wire from the same circuit all available at the outlet box in the garage. I have my alligator clip test leads ready and waiting for your instructions. I just hope it's not a defective WS469 switch. It responds to the X10 codes. I know I have two installed upstairs, but I would hate to take one out just to substitute it.
Please let me know how you would recommend wiring the CS277.
Thank you,
Ivan
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Regarding posting images, just click on the "Attachments and other options" button at the bottom of the reply screen. It will let you choose a file and attach it to the post.
As for the measurement, it was on the CS277. Check that the two blue wires have no resistance between them. Make sure it isn't connected to the WS469 or the light when making the measurement.
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One other thought. The wiring for the WS469 never made any sense to me. Try connecting it like the WS4777 except also connect the white wire to neutral. In other words, connect the blue wires of he CS277 to the hot wire and black wire of the WS469, connect the blue wire of the WS469 to the light, and white wire of the WS469 to the neutral wire.
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Newbies cannot attach files. You'll have to make more posts before you can do that.
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One other thought. The wiring for the WS469 never made any sense to me. Try connecting it like the WS4777 except also connect the white wire to neutral. In other words, connect the blue wires of he CS277 to the hot wire and black wire of the WS469, connect the blue wire of the WS469 to the light, and white wire of the WS469 to the neutral wire.
The White wire has to be Neutral, Black Line and Blue is the Load for a WS469. It is a relay type and does not steal power through the load like a dimmer does and needs a real Neutral.
The manual shows how it has to be connected with a CS277.
http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/ws469.pdf
The WS4677 with the CS277 has always been confusing. As there are more than one way a three way setup could be wired.
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Ivan,
As pointed out. You can't post the pdf until the Newbie membership is removed.
I believe it is five posts have to be made.
I downloaded the WS4777/CS277 manual and it does not show any of the wires on the CS277 capped off. Maybe the sheet in the CS277 box is incorrect or unclear. My gut says unclear as the X10 three way setups seem to be an issue with many users.
One factor is there is more than one way an electrician can wire a three way light and each may require a slightly different way to convert to X10.
I looked at the WS469 manual. The labeling for the CS277 is VERY confusing. The Blue wire colors are not called out as Blue but called Live. :'
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One other thought. The wiring for the WS469 never made any sense to me. Try connecting it like the WS4777 except also connect the white wire to neutral. In other words, connect the blue wires of he CS277 to the hot wire and black wire of the WS469, connect the blue wire of the WS469 to the light, and white wire of the WS469 to the neutral wire.
The White wire has to be Neutral, Black Line and Blue is the Load for a WS469. It is a relay type and does not steal power through the load like a dimmer does and needs a real Neutral.
If you re-read my post, it says exactly that.
The manual shows how it has to be connected with a CS277.
http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/ws469.pdf
The WS4677 with the CS277 has always been confusing. As there are more than one way a three way setup could be wired.
If you read the WS479 manual, it says to connect the blue wire to the companion switch and the companion switch to the load. This doesn't make any sense as when the load is off, the companion switch won't have any power to switch back to the traveller. The WS4777 says to connect the black wire to the companion switch and the companion switch to the HOT. This makes more sense to me as the companion switch will always have power to switch back to the traveller.
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I agree. It does not make sense and maybe an error.
I looked at the XPS3 decorator relay type and the Line goes into one of the companion Blue Wires. The other Companion Blue wire goes to the Line Input of the XPS3. Red wire from the slave to the trigger input of the XPS3.
Neutral goes to the XPS3 and the Load Output on the XPS3 to the light or load being controlled.
So with the Load On or Off there is still a 120 volt trigger available.
I hope the one Ivan has in his box maybe a correct one.
I misread part of your post. I thought they where already using Neutral bundle and you where suggesting a swap.
My bad. Sorry.l
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Thank you Roger and Brian,
I only got a chance this evening to test the brand new CS277 and the existing one. They both test the same. Blue to blue is a short, even if the button is pressed. red shorts to either blue when button is pressed.
Since I am not able to attach a file yet, I will try to explain the diagram that came shipped with the WS469 switch first. WS469 white to neutral. Black to hot (live). Blue common to lamp. Red to red on the CS277. CS277 blue to black common to live on the WS469. The remaining blue shows as capped off (no connection).
The following is as quoted verbatim from the text instructions:
"Replace one of the existing wall switches with the WS469 Wall Switch (Master): connect the common wire to the black wire on the WS469 using a wire nut. Connect the two remaining "traveler" wires to the red and blue wires on the WS469, using wire nuts. If one of the travelers are red (they may be a different color) connect it to the red wire on the WS469. Connect the WS469's White wire to Neutral (NOT ground).
Replace the other existing wall switch with the CS277 Companion Switch (sold separately): Connect the common wire to one of the CS277's BLUE wires. Connect the traveler wire which you connected to the RED wire on the WS469 to the RED wire on the CS277. Connect the remaining traveler wire to the second BLUE wire on the CS277."
The text ambiguously mentions connections to two blue wires, but the diagram shows one blue wire of the CS277 unconnected. Nor does the text mention a lamp (load) connection. Very confusing.
I have it connected now without the CS277, jumping the blue wire from the WS469 to the light, making it effectively work as a stand alone master switch. As I said before, I have every wire available (including a hot wire already in the garage on the same circuit, supplying power to outlets there), in the remote (garage) switchbox. I have alligator clip leads ready. :)
Ivan
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Thank you for the test of the CS277.
That looks correct and both work as they should.
I will go through what you posted. Will see if I can figure it out.
It does sound like the WS469 and CS277 information sheets on the X10 web site where updated with the sheet you got in the modules boxes. So the ones I am looking at are not current. ???
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I only got a chance this evening to test the brand new CS277 and the existing one. They both test the same. Blue to blue is a short, even if the button is pressed. red shorts to either blue when button is pressed.
I did a continuity test on my CS277s last night and got the same results as you did, so everything seems okay on that end.
Since I am not able to attach a file yet, I will try to explain the diagram that came shipped with the WS469 switch first. ...
I also had a look at my WS469 instructions and they were the same as you described. I think the picture on the printed instructions is the closest thing to being correct (though the text is certainly confusing and inaccurate). I didn't have time to scan them though.
I have it connected now without the CS277, jumping the blue wire from the WS469 to the light, making it effectively work as a stand alone master switch. As I said before, I have every wire available (including a hot wire already in the garage on the same circuit, supplying power to outlets there), in the remote (garage) switchbox. I have alligator clip leads ready. :)
For your experiment, try the following (similar to diagram on printed instructions):
- Red wire on CS277 to red traveller wire
- One blue wire on CS277 to black (HOT) wire
- Cap other blue wire on CS277
Let us known if that works.
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Hello Roger,
Thanks for the suggestion, although you didn't mention where to connect the load (floodlight).
I spent the day on a ladder reattaching the bracket holding my FiOS cable to the house. The lead anchors ripped out of the brick. Fortunately, there still were preexisting POTS wires attached to an old ceramic clamp to support the FiOS cable without kinking it. After that, I was working on my old Ford tractor. Had to remove the battery, air cleaner, etc to access the defective starter solenoid. So I haven't had a chance to check for replies until now, or work on the switch. I will go out to the garage later to try your suggestion. Before I do, please tell me where to hook up the load. Thank you. :)
Ivan
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Thanks for the suggestion, although you didn't mention where to connect the load (floodlight).
Keep the WS469 connected as it is. So in summary, the wiring should be as follows:
WS469
- Black - HOT
- White - Neutral (not ground)
- Red - Traveller (to CS277)
- Blue - Load
CS277
- Red - Traveller (from WS469)
- Blue1 - HOT
- Blue2 - Capped
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I tried the wiring you suggested and now the light just stays on all the time. (: Still trying to figure it out. At least I finished working on my tractor and the electrical system and carburetor are working fine. :)
I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
Ivan
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I tried the wiring you suggested and now the light just stays on all the time. (: Still trying to figure it out.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Are you sure everything is connected as I described? Only the blue wire from the WS469 should be connected to the load.
I got a chance to scan the instruction sheet. I have attached from it Diagram B only as as the text is either confusing or just wrong. Even still, the diagram is a little confusing the way they have a wire crossing the face of the WS469.
I will try to do some experimenting with mine later today to see if I can figure out what works.
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Thank you Roger, that's how I had it originally wired. Maybe something is wrong with my WS469 switch. I don't know how the relay in the WS469 is designed to work electrically. Could it be to simulate an SPDT switch with the black lead being the center pole and the red and blue leads being the outer poles? I know that the signal has to reach the WS469 from the CS277 to activate it.
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Thank you Roger, that's how I had it originally wired. Maybe something is wrong with my WS469 switch. I don't know how the relay in the WS469 is designed to work electrically. Could it be to simulate an SPDT switch with the black lead being the center pole and the red and blue leads being the outer poles? I know that the signal has to reach the WS469 from the CS277 to activate it.
SPST switch. Turns On and Off from the Line to the Blue (Common to Lamp wire) on the WS469.
Line is also connected to one of the Blue wires on the CS277. The other Blue capped off for safety as both are tied together.
When you push the CS277 it connects the 120 volt Line back to the Trigger input of the WS469. From CS277 Blue to Red.
The Red trigger is activated by putting 120 volts from the line on it.
It maybe a wiring error. As I have see a few different ways a three way can be wired.
I have one where the Load and Line are both in the main electrical box and the other one is connected back to it on the three wire cable.
I have also seen some. Where the Line is in one box and the Load in the other box. So how you wire it may depend on exactly what you have.
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Roger,
Thank you for the updated wiring diagram.
The one I downloaded directly from X10 is a big WRONG! :'
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I installed my 3-way WS469/CS277 and it is working perfectly. I have corrected the diagram found online and have attached it below.
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Electrically, aren't they the same?
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They look electrically the same.
Though the physical layout looks different.
I have see different two-way setups.
I have one where the Line, Load and Neutral. Are all in the one box and the other switch is just the two travelers and common.
All the power routing and splices are in the main box..
I believe the two examples shown. One has the Line in the companion box and the other the Line in the master box with load in the companion box.
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I wired the WS469 and CS277 EXACTLY as described in the diagram, but in my case the way the original mechanical 3-way switch was wired, hot was in the house and load was in the garage, the two traveler wires toggling the switch actions.
Here's what I did, using alligator test leads: Blue from the WS469, using one of the two traveler wires, to the Load at the garage. Red from the WS469, using the remaining traveler wire, to the red wire of the CS277 at the garage and the other blue wire on the CS277 connected to local to the garage hot (on the same circuit fuse). I can turn on and off the light from the house, but pressing the CS277 does nothing. Here's what's weird: If I momentarily touch the hot lead at the garage to the red wire, the light goes on and remains on until I momentarily touch the hot lead again to the red lead, and then the light goes off and remains off. Isn't that exactly what the CS277 is supposed to be doing? I tested the CS277 with my OHM meter for continuity and every thing checks out OK. What do you think is going on?????
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I though you said the Line was in the House and the Load was in the Garage.
Where did the Hot {real Line} come from in the garage?
Where is the common wire in the cable connected between the House and Garage?
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The way they did it in the 1940s, there are four wires going to the garage from the fuse box in the basement of the house. A pair of #8 or #10 wires wired to a sub-panel (in actuality a DPST knife switch), one hot and the other neutral for some reason, in the garage for outlet power, and the other two #12 traveler wires on the ground floor hall for the 3-way floodlight switch control. They are all from the same circuit. I know it's not a logical way to do it, but one of those hot wires from the basement goes to the hall to power the garage floodlight.
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Thank you for the information on your setup.
It does sound kind of unique.
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Electrically, aren't they the same?
My modified diagram is electrically the same as the printed diagram, though it is a bit more consistent with the way a traditional 3-way switch is wired (and the way the WS4777 was wired).
It is electrically different from the diagram online as online though.
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I originally had the WS4777 and companion CS277 wired fine with no problems for years, controlling a 100 watt light bulb, until I got the WS469, because of the higher current required for a 500 watt halogen spotlight to replace the original unique light bulb fixture (the bulb socket was irrepairably damaged) .
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I wired the WS469 and CS277 EXACTLY as described in the diagram, but in my case the way the original mechanical 3-way switch was wired, hot was in the house and load was in the garage, the two traveler wires toggling the switch actions.
So your original configuration was something like this (with the house switch on the left and garage switch on the right?
(https://www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com/images/xLarge-3-way-switch-1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.VOU3syRmP4.jpg)
In that configuration it would be normally be best to put the WS469 in the garage (closest to the load) and the CS277 in the house (although if in your case if you actually have 4 wires going between the house and garage switch boxes (to provide power for the outlet), you can get away with doing it the other way).
Here's what I did, using alligator test leads: Blue from the WS469, using one of the two traveler wires, to the Load at the garage. Red from the WS469, using the remaining traveler wire, to the red wire of the CS277 at the garage and the other blue wire on the CS277 connected to local to the garage hot (on the same circuit fuse).
What do you mean by "the other blue wire on the CS277?" What are you doing with the first one?
I can turn on and off the light from the house, but pressing the CS277 does nothing. Here's what's weird: If I momentarily touch the hot lead at the garage to the red wire, the light goes on and remains on until I momentarily touch the hot lead again to the red lead, and then the light goes off and remains off. Isn't that exactly what the CS277 is supposed to be doing? I tested the CS277 with my OHM meter for continuity and every thing checks out OK. What do you think is going on?????
That is very strange.
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Yes, essentially that is the configuration I have. On the CS277 one blue wire goes through one of the traveler wires to the blue wire from the WS469. The other wire of the CS277 is capped off and unconnected. The red wire from the CS277 goes through the other traveler wire to the red wire of the WS469.
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Yes, essentially that is the configuration I have. On the CS277 one blue wire goes through one of the traveler wires to the blue wire from the WS469. The other wire of the CS277 is capped off and unconnected. The red wire from the CS277 goes through the other traveler wire to the red wire of the WS469.
That's your problem. It should go to black wire of the WS469. The blue wire on the WS469 should only be connected to the lamp.
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Roger, thank you for your help. Please explain exactly what you mean by:
"That's your problem. It should go to black wire of the WS469. The blue wire on the WS469 should only be connected to the lamp."
In other words, what should go to the black wire of the WS469? I presently have the blue wire from the WS469 directly connected to the lamp with an alligator clip lead, so it essentially makes the WS469 operate in stand alone mode. I don't have the CS277 connected now. (I'm in the experimenting testing stage) Please explain in detail how you recommend to connect the CS277. I think I've exhausted every combination :)
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Let me do it as a table to see if that helps:
| Signal | WS469 | CS277 |
| HOT | Black | Blue |
| Neutral | White | - |
| Lamp | Blue | - |
| Traveller | Red | Red |
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Roger, that's exactly how I wired it in the first place. I just now attached a brand new CS277 in circuit like you described. Still nothing. Won't turn off the light when it is turned on at the house and won't turn on the light when it is turned off at the house. The totally weird anomaly is that if I get an alligator clip lead and momentarily touch garage hot to red, the light goes on and stays on. If I momentarily touch it again the light goes off and stays off. Like I've been saying, isn't that what the CS277 is supposed to do? I don't get it.
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I am at a complete loss then. As you say, momentarily touching the red wire to the hot wire should emulate what the switch is doing so it doesn't make sense for that to work but the switch to not work. The only thing I can think of is maybe you aren't pushing the switch hard enough (or holding it long enough). It may be not register too quick a tap on the button (I have noticed you need to give it a nice, firm push for it to register).
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Roger, after trying several CS277 switches with the same results, I decided to use a momentary SPST push button switch. I drilled a blank surface mount switch plate and installed the switch. Everything is working fine now. I should note, however, even though the CS277 shows infinite resistance, when I tried momentary shorting the red and blue leads, it still didn't turn the light on or off. There must be more to the switch than just a mechanical on/off.
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Very strange, but glad you got it to work.
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If you're still having trouble with the CS277 working correctly with the WS469, I fixed the issue. The CS277 has an internal capacitor between the Blue and Red wires (wired in parallel with the push button switch). My guess is the capacitor was designed into the CS277 to enable it to work with 2 wire x10 switches (that is no neutral). All of the schematics I have seen for x10 switches have a diagram of the CS277 but show a push button WITHOUT the capacitor. Once I removed the capacitor which then matches the schematic, everything works fine.