X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: petera on November 04, 2019, 09:44:46 AM
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It probably sounds like a strange question but are members here still using X10. I’ve noticed that recent posts have had very little to do with the subject of X10 so I was curious to know if members have moved on to alternative technologies.
I understand that with the demise of ActiveHome Pro members have struggled to find a software alternative to control their X10 devices. Thankfully there are credible alternatives out there that will allow you to continue and enhance your home automation system using X10.
What is even better news is the opportunities to acquire some very useful X10 equipment at a fraction of its original selling price on the likes of eBay. I’ve acquired some really good bargains recently and these bargains coupled with a Raspberry Pi or equivalent have allowed me to automate friends and families homes combing an old technology like X10 with some of the latest and greatest technologies which would not have been possible with ActiveHome Pro.
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My main protocol is Insteon and an ISY994i that can do X10 and Insteon.
Insteon Modules are old enough to also accept an optional X10 address.
I still have some X10 devices in use. Like a HR12A Palm Pad as there is no 16 address Insteon remote. Chime modules, V572 All address transceiver into the TW523 emulation port on a XTB-IIR, 1/3 of an ELK door bell sensor to a PF248 Powerflash.
Not any of the more recent things. Like Wi-Fi, Alexa or even a Smartphone with Apps.
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I'm 90%+ X10. I've recently been moving to LED security lighting with built-in motion sensors that no longer require X10 for some locations. The biggest installation for me has always been exterior lights and motion sensors X10 offer are generally terrible. With LED's using so little electricity and the motion sensors being pretty good compared to past variants I've tried, I don't have as much need for my traditional installations. IMO, X10 would be a better option if they had usable, truly weatherproof motion sensors with decent range instead of the garbage MS16A and equivalent.
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Is the MS16a range that poor. Would it be possible to weatherproof them yourself. I've used the MS13 for indoor myself but with signal collision when using the CM15/Mochad combo I abandoned them in favour of the sensors that my security panel uses in Home Assistant. Of course with MQTT you can use virtually any combination of sensors in any of the available technologies.
I try to keep my posts as X10 centric as possible but it's always tempting to point out what is possible with X10 in combination with other more modern technologies. I do promise though that if my roof springs a leak I won't be posting here looking for solutions. rofl
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Stock MS16 (any of them really) are pretty bad with range on a stock CM15A. After adding an antenna mod to my CM15A and a large antenna, I can use MS16a's in some places as is, but they are generally spotty. I added 18" passive antennas to each sensor and they work ok. As for weatherproof, the one I have in my woodshed has survived for several years (outside of the battery corrosion issues). The ones on the south side of my house are exposed to weather (UV/rain/etc). They last all summer without issue, but they never survive a winter. Even when weatherized (open, add silicone, close, add more silicone, add more silicone) they don't last long. The screen fails (could be freezing, could be UV, don't know). The internals do NOT like water, so once they crack, they've already been compromised.
I intended to replace them with either WiFi sensors or other protocol over the last few years. That hadn't happened. I even bought a number of MS16A's on the cheap (~$5/ea) so I could just replace them annually when they failed. That worked, but was annoying. I just replaced the fixtures on that side of the house with LED units with light sensors. I am going to keep that light on all the time (8W bulbs at night only won't cost much). I replaced the flood light with a motion sensor type that has worked great on my shop for over a year. The wood shed just had a IP67 shop light with integrated motion sensor installed and I expect it to work well on its own. The only other location I wanted to update was by my garage man door. However, there is no motion sensor that I think will work out there because the heat pump is right next to it. When it goes into defrost mode, it creates a hot plume that will trigger most motion sensors. I think I give up on that one...
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Still using ActiveHome Pro on W10 laptop and a CM15a. My setup is very simple, just lighting on one housecode and several motions set up for detected lighting on two others. I use PalmPads daily and have also added the Willie 100 for phone remote capabilities. I have been using X10 'technology' since Radio Shack came out with 'Plug n' Power' in the 70's, still have some of the original modules.
I have found it so reliable for what I need that I have hardly thought about what I would use as a replacement. I can always get a new ActiveHome Pro controller and download AHP 3.xx, so I can't see a reason to worry too much....
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Still using ActiveHome Pro on W10 laptop and a CM15a. My setup is very simple, just lighting on one housecode and several motions set up for detected lighting on two others. I use PalmPads daily and have also added the Willie 100 for phone remote capabilities. I have been using X10 'technology' since Radio Shack came out with 'Plug n' Power' in the 70's, still have some of the original modules.
I have found it so reliable for what I need that I have hardly thought about what I would use as a replacement. I can always get a new ActiveHome Pro controller and download AHP 3.xx, so I can't see a reason to worry too much....
Possibly not and if it's just basic macros and timers you use your CM15 loaded with both will probably suffice. Assuming that if you need to make any changes that your laptop with AHP will still function. MS Windows future versions will definitely at some stage stop working with AHP so maybe the old laptop working off line will fill your needs.
The ability to integrate X10 with more modern technologies was the challenge for me and I can safely say it works very well on many of the current range of single board computers. What are known as macros and timers are now events and automations on these platforms.
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Stock MS16 (any of them really) are pretty bad with range on a stock CM15A. After adding an antenna mod to my CM15A and a large antenna, I can use MS16a's in some places as is, but they are generally spotty. I added 18" passive antennas to each sensor and they work ok. As for weatherproof, the one I have in my woodshed has survived for several years (outside of the battery corrosion issues). The ones on the south side of my house are exposed to weather (UV/rain/etc). They last all summer without issue, but they never survive a winter. Even when weatherized (open, add silicone, close, add more silicone, add more silicone) they don't last long. The screen fails (could be freezing, could be UV, don't know). The internals do NOT like water, so once they crack, they've already been compromised.
I intended to replace them with either WiFi sensors or other protocol over the last few years. That hadn't happened. I even bought a number of MS16A's on the cheap (~$5/ea) so I could just replace them annually when they failed. That worked, but was annoying. I just replaced the fixtures on that side of the house with LED units with light sensors. I am going to keep that light on all the time (8W bulbs at night only won't cost much). I replaced the flood light with a motion sensor type that has worked great on my shop for over a year. The wood shed just had a IP67 shop light with integrated motion sensor installed and I expect it to work well on its own. The only other location I wanted to update was by my garage man door. However, there is no motion sensor that I think will work out there because the heat pump is right next to it. When it goes into defrost mode, it creates a hot plume that will trigger most motion sensors. I think I give up on that one...
I suppose it's just a matter of what best fits and what's most cost effective. Partly from nostalgia and possibly from proven reliability I stuck with X10 and thankfully found a place for it in my new setup. Replacement parts of course are to be had used at a fraction of the original price and thankfully I have enough of them to last many years. :)%
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Perhaps a poll would bring more responses and avoid talking about individual devices.
I personally have nothing X10 in use but I still keep coming back to see if anything new and interesting comes up.
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Perhaps a poll would bring more responses and avoid talking about individual devices.
I personally have nothing X10 in use but I still keep coming back to see if anything new and interesting comes up.
I made this post to encourage discussion on X10. I wanted to see who is still using it, how it fits in with today's requirements and who intends to continue using it. I find polls a little hollow and uninformative.
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I still have mostly x10 stuff for my lights, with few other things mixed in. I did replace my x10 cameras, as they were not cutting it anymore. The Pi Hub with HomeGenie has enabled the x10 stuff I do have to be more useful and reliable and the Alexa integration makes it more user friendly too. I am happy with my current set up.
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I still have mostly x10 stuff for my lights, with few other things mixed in. I did replace my x10 cameras, as they were not cutting it anymore. The Pi Hub with HomeGenie has enabled the x10 stuff I do have to be more useful and reliable and the Alexa integration makes it more user friendly too. I am happy with my current set up.
It's good to hear members are using X10 for more than Halloween and Christmas lights. As I mentioned before it stands it's own ground with any of the other more modern lighting and switching technologies.
Have you updated your HomeGenie installation from Raspbian Stretch to Raspbian Buster. Much more stable and responsive all round and for those just using X10 and IP webcams it's running very smoothly on a Raspberry Pi Zero W. No need for constant restarting that some seem to need to do.
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Still 100% X10 here with almost 100% reliability. Things got quirky a couple of months ago, but it turned out to be a failing electrolytic in my Ocelot that was causing it to run through the startup sequence multiple times a day. With that replaced, I'm back to 100% reliability.
Jeff
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Still 100% X10 here with almost 100% reliability. Things got quirky a couple of months ago, but it turned out to be a failing electrolytic in my Ocelot that was causing it to run through the startup sequence multiple times a day. With that replaced, I'm back to 100% reliability.
Jeff
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. 100% usage and 100% reliability. I don't understand the commercial software world's hurry to dump official X10 support in their product. I've tried many of the other alternatives out there and they are not without their problems either. In fact as far as I can see the likes of Z Wave is a minefield when it goes wrong.
I think the simplicity of X10 confounds developers. How many of today's technologies will integrate into products in 40 years time. Very few I doubt.
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How many of today's technologies will integrate into products in 40 years time. Very few I doubt.
Careful! Some people don't want their systems to work forever since things can change.
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How many of today's technologies will integrate into products in 40 years time. Very few I doubt.
Careful! Some people don't want their systems to work forever since things can change.
So lucky Apple didn't invent X10. I'd have a drawer full of useless plugs if that had been the case :'
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I have using X10 since the early BSR (unpolarized brown module) days. Still have about 6 of them still working. It has served me well, and has been reliable. I have a box of 20 or so light modules that get used every holiday for Christmas lights. All set to the same code, one button push and the whole house lights up! Always impresses the guests. Repairs typically are the electrolytic caps or zener diodes, every now and then a triac. Early appliance modules were typically trashed as the relays were of a poor design. Bought newer modules as time went on, and when I moved into my current home all light switches got replaced with decora style X10 ones with soft start. When a new TV with a signal sucking switching supply came into the house, so did a plug in filter. It just works.
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I still run X10 for 90% of my setup at the city and at my off grid place. Like Jeff my x10 parts are almost 100 reliable. Wish the rest worked as well.
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I have using X10 since the early BSR (unpolarized brown module) days. Still have about 6 of them still working. It has served me well, and has been reliable. I have a box of 20 or so light modules that get used every holiday for Christmas lights. All set to the same code, one button push and the whole house lights up! Always impresses the guests. Repairs typically are the electrolytic caps or zener diodes, every now and then a triac. Early appliance modules were typically trashed as the relays were of a poor design. Bought newer modules as time went on, and when I moved into my current home all light switches got replaced with decora style X10 ones with soft start. When a new TV with a signal sucking switching supply came into the house, so did a plug in filter. It just works.
That's great to see. A true X10 disciple :)%
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I still run X10 for 90% of my setup at the city and at my off grid place. Like Jeff my x10 parts are almost 100 reliable. Wish the rest worked as well.
Just finished removing a ZWave setup on a Vera Edge controller for a friend and replacing it with an X10 setup. The Vera Edge of course has a built in Z Wave radio chip but the problems he was experiencing with ZWave nearly turned him off the unit. He now has a fully functional Vera Edge X10 based controller with all the usual home automation trimmings. Glad to get another home automation controller working comfortably with X10 >*<
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Homeseer says I have 141 devices, but about 32 are virtual devices and flags which use X10 HCUCs but are not actual hardware.
X10 is like an old Studebaker, it may burn a little oil but it just keeps on going and going. (How many got lost at the Studebaker part? rofl )
Addendum: I have three "Banker Boxes" in basement overflowing with X10 protocol devices. One box's contents are new, in box, from when old X10 Wireless went bust and unloaded cheap. I don't see myself moving on to Z-Wave and definitely not WiFi.
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Homeseer says I have 141 devices, but about 32 are virtual devices and flags which use X10 HCUCs but are not actual hardware.
X10 is like an old Studebaker, it may burn a little oil but it just keeps on going and going. (How many got lost at the Studebaker part? rofl )
Absolutely.
You have it working on a commercial product like Homeseer which is now 20+ years old and still in development and it's fully functioning. It works perfectly on an open source product like Home Assistant equally well which is a couple of years old and the list is endless.
It's difficult to see why people feel the need to abandon it in favour of technologies that are clearly not fully tried and tested and have little or no track record.
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I originally bought X10 to control lights in my Home Theater (nearly 20 years ago).
I quickly expanded the automation into my home office (now a man-cave)... then security, and outdoor cameras. I adopted Voice Control using BVC back in 2006-07.... and continued building and growing my X10 setup.
But when the better Hard drive camera recording setups became available I jumped on that... with no regrets. And have been putting off an upgrade of my current system... waiting for it to breakdown.
My X10 Security alarm became too outdated.... with so many options available with the newer systems. So I switched the X10 out there too. My garage door lifter also failed (after nearly 40 years)... and I replaced it with a new unit with the MyQ wifi control.
I have been adding wifi automation since Apple added it to their iphone. Which is also when I bought a Echo device. I was gifted a Homeseer unit, bought an Echo PLUS and.... eventually switched from a BVC (Bill's Voice Control) running on a windows PC controlling everything via a CM15A.... to a WM-100, the Homeseer hub, 5 Echo devices (one is the PLUS hub), a Wink hub, and the MyQ hub. Of course I've also added a wifi [Nest] thermostat... and more.
Although all of my original (basement) X10 is still intact I think I only have 2-3 lights upstairs controlled by X10 modules now. The wifi bulbs are just so easy and convenient.
There are several "types" of automation users. Most people just have a problem they want to solve. Some people enjoy the "control" home automation can provide for the user. I am a "builder" automation user. I enjoy the projects that build the system (bigger and better). Automation is my winter project (every winter). It would be silly for me to do anything that might limit my automation's growth... and my own enjoyment.
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I still have mostly x10 stuff for my lights, with few other things mixed in. I did replace my x10 cameras, as they were not cutting it anymore. The Pi Hub with HomeGenie has enabled the x10 stuff I do have to be more useful and reliable and the Alexa integration makes it more user friendly too. I am happy with my current set up.
It's good to hear members are using X10 for more than Halloween and Christmas lights. As I mentioned before it stands it's own ground with any of the other more modern lighting and switching technologies.
Have you updated your HomeGenie installation from Raspbian Stretch to Raspbian Buster. Much more stable and responsive all round and for those just using X10 and IP webcams it's running very smoothly on a Raspberry Pi Zero W. No need for constant restarting that some seem to need to do.
Are you referring to the version of the OS on my PI? If so, then no I have not updated. What I currently have is running smoothly at this time.
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Yea I assume your Raspberry Pi is running the OS Raspbian Stretch. Development has now finished on that version so all you will be receiving is security updates for a limited time.You really need to upgrade to Raspbian Buster to benefit from any further developmental updates to the OS.
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I am using the image provided by Tuicemen so not 100 percent sure - maybe he can chime in on if that is advised (probably need a separate thread for that)
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I am using the image provided by Tuicemen so not 100 percent sure - maybe he can chime in on if that is advised (probably need a separate thread for that)
Yes in that case you are using Raspbian Stretch.
I've posted very clear and simple instructions on how to install Homegenie on Raspbian Buster http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=31064.0
Read through the whole post and you'll see one user who would be a novice managed it no problem.
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Raspbian Stretch is a stable platform and I've been using it for a few years. I would not recommend staying on it if you have your system connected and exposed to the
internet cloud since there are potential security implications. My RPi1 is going to be replaced by the RPi3 I've been playing with for the last year or so. It will have Buster with HG installed very soon using petera's guide. I had intended on a switch to Hass, but that hasn't happened due to issues setting up RF modules, so I'm still using HG as my HA system. It just works well! In fact, I haven't even thought about the installed setup in months due to it's rock solid stability. I switched my internet setup around recently so the HG RPi isn't even connected to the network right now and everything keeps plugging along as normal.
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Raspbian Stretch is a stable platform and I've been using it for a few years. I would not recommend staying on it if you have your system connected and exposed to the internet cloud since there are potential security implications. My RPi1 is going to be replaced by the RPi3 I've been playing with for the last year or so. It will have Buster with HG installed very soon using petera's guide. I had intended on a switch to Hass, but that hasn't happened due to issues setting up RF modules, so I'm still using HG as my HA system. It just works well! In fact, I haven't even thought about the installed setup in months due to it's rock solid stability. I switched my internet setup around recently so the HG RPi isn't even connected to the network right now and everything keeps plugging along as normal.
Yes it's tempting to leave your Raspberry Pi to its own devices when it's working away nicely. Unlike Windoze it doesn't force updates down your throat. It's only when you discover you do have a problem you then realise you are a version or two behind which may require a fresh install of a newer version to resolve your problem. Again not a major issue but more of an inconvenience really.
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So long as you have a spare SD card to work with, updating the RPi is so easy that it's silly to worry about it...especially when you have a scripted set of install steps available! I learned the hard way that not recording your steps will lead to frustrations in isolating small differences in installations. With such a script, updating to the newest version can be as simple as copy/paste and hit enter (once you have a RPi image installed of course).
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Absolutely.
The distribution upgrade can be a little trickier though. Mono can be a nightmare during a distribution upgrade as it spawns many folders in Linux. I’ve seen so many people tearing their hair out with that one particularly as in the case of a HomeGenie the recommendation is to install Mono from the project page and not from the distribution repository.
I generally find it easier to do a /home folder backup, a fresh install and a restore when moving between distributions. You can see that with a change in distribution between Stretch and Buster the recommenced Gdebi installer for HomeGenie fails. I suppose that’s why I made that post earlier about upgrading from Stretch to Buster to help others who couldn’t move on.
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I always recommend updating to the newest version for a number of reasons. My automation season hasn't started yet but I plan to revise the PiX10Hub image to Buster. Following petera's step by step post would be just as easy for existing users.
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Automation is my winter project (every winter). It would be silly for me to do anything that might limit my automation's growth... and my own enjoyment.
Then I hope you have geared up. Supposed to snow tomorrow, and I still have a yard full of leaves...sigh.
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I always recommend updating to the newest version for a number of reasons. My automation season hasn't started yet but I plan to revise the PiX10Hub image to Buster. Following petera's step by step post would be just as easy for existing users.
Was thinking about this. Rather than just getting an SD card with the latest software and putting in my Pi Zero W I was going to get another Pi and use that to upgrade the software.
Would that make sense? Is there another Pi that would be recommended (i. E. Pi 4) ?
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Not all Pis are the same image from one modle will not always work in the other. So if you wish to have one for simply doing upgrades get the same model your setup os on, the zero w.
>!
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I always recommend updating to the newest version for a number of reasons. My automation season hasn't started yet but I plan to revise the PiX10Hub image to Buster. Following petera's step by step post would be just as easy for existing users.
Was thinking about this. Rather than just getting an SD card with the latest software and putting in my Pi Zero W I was going to get another Pi and use that to upgrade the software.
Would that make sense? Is there another Pi that would be recommended (i. E. Pi 4) ?
Not really.
Why would you want two separate servers doing the same job. Unnecessary redundancy.
If you're just using X10 and maybe some IP cams your Pi Zero W is well up for the job. Anything outside of that the choice is endless.
The Pi 3+, the Pi 4 which is buggy and not recommended, the Rock64 4Gb unit which is an animal with the same profile as the Pi and the Odroid etc etc. The choice is endless. Just stay up to date as far as the OS is concerned on whatever board you use.
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I would not run both at the same time. One would be a backup system.
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I would not run both at the same time. One would be a backup system.
Take an SD image of your card. You can write it back to your SD card at any stage though I doubt you would need to. As I said stick with your Pi Zero W unless you needed to add some serious processor/memory intensive applications on top of HomeGenie.
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I too have been using X10 since the BSR days in the mid 70's and I am desperately trying to continue doing so.
I have almost a 100 devices spread over three house codes throughout our 2,000 sq/ft 3 story house and a detached studio almost 100' from the house and they have simply "worked" over the decades...
...until the introduction of LED lighting. We are in a semi-rural area and we are the only home on our transformer, so, we have not been subject to interference from adjacent homes. I ran into, and addressed, some distance issues when we built the studio in 2000, but really wanted to be Eco-responsible and have introduced first halogen, then CF and eventually LED's over the past couple of decades and it's clear that LED's especially are X10 hostile.
The clearest example was when I replaced the 10 florescent tubes in my shop with LED tubes and effectively lost the ability to control almost half of the X10 units despite a high end phase coupler/repeater. Turn the shop lights off, and everything X10 works. Somewhere someone described LED units as "black holes that suck X10 powerline signals."
I'm still trying, experimenting with boosters, filters, etc with limited success. I've trained myself to religiously turn off the shop lights every time I exit the shop, and I am hopeful to be able to continue.
The alternative options have serious limitations compared to X10, including the ability to introduce serious malware and privacy problems inside of strong firewalls. Nothing I have found has my favorite "ALL OFF" command that I use more than any other.
I need all the help I can get.
Beverly Howard
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Well the Cadillac of repeater-couplers. Is the JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR. It blasts over a 10 volt X10 signal back on both incoming lines of the power. It has been a cure for many users here.
http://jvde.us/xtb-iir.htm
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First gen LED lights were bad for x10 most of the newer ones I've installed I don't have a problem with.
My off grid place is totaly LEd lighting the only time I have issues with X10 is when
My back up generator kicks in an even then it rarely causes a issue.
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I have been using the XTB-IIR for ~8 years and it's worked great. I replaced my shop lights last year (fluorescent tubes to LED) and used the XTBM to confirm that the modules were not a problem. After installing, I confirmed full functionality. I replaced some outdoor spot lights with LED as well and found a brand that was a non-issue for X10 and again, 100% working. I replaced my exterior sconce lights with ones using Feit bulbs which also caused no issue. I installed some LED ceiling fixtures also which posed no problem.
I would agree that some LED are problematic. I would also say that some LED are zero issue. I guess the only way to know if it's a problem is to try it with an XTBM or equivalent. I have found that it's really it or miss and in most cases it's ok.