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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HA Dave on December 12, 2019, 11:13:13 PM

Title: Her
Post by: HA Dave on December 12, 2019, 11:13:13 PM
I finally saw the movie "Her". Starring Joaquin Phoenix it's a movie about a man who becomes fascinated with a new "operating system" which reportedly develops into an intuitive and unique entity. The ultimate AI.

Although I think the movie was a bit "creepy" (perverse?).... I also think the 2013 movie hit the nail on head as far as the future of personal (and Home) automation. Interestingly.... I have been looking for a Alexa enabled single earbud to use with my iphone.

My phone is ALWAYS with me now-a-days. If done correctly... everything will be within a access... with just a spoken word.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on December 13, 2019, 12:52:27 AM
The Alexa earbuds can be used singly so you'll always have spare charged and ready.  I tried a pair and the noise cancellation was pretty much as good as the Bose QC-20's on a plane but the volume for audio was too low to be useful so I returned them.  BTW, if you're looking to expand Alexa's range in your home, they have the Echo Input on sale for 10 bucks right now.  I just put one in the garage today so I don't have to shout 30 feet to the Dot.  I didn't plug in a speaker so it's basically just an extension microphone. 
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on December 14, 2019, 09:27:39 PM
The Alexa earbuds can be used singly so you'll always have spare charged and ready.  I tried a pair and the noise cancellation was pretty much as good as the Bose QC-20's on a plane but the volume for audio was too low to be useful so I returned them.

Thanks for the info. I knew the Alexa earbuds would work... but didn't know I could use just ONE.... or that there is a volume issue.

I am a cyclist for recreation and I like the idea of staying connected.... with spoken (and dictated text) along with Home Automation alerts. And... news and music too. I think using TWO earbuds while bicycling might border on dangerous.

BTW, if you're looking to expand Alexa's range in your home, they have the Echo Input on sale for 10 bucks right now.  I just put one in the garage today so I don't have to shout 30 feet to the Dot.  I didn't plug in a speaker so it's basically just an extension microphone.

The addition of the Echo "show" makes Echo device #7 (counting the voice remote in my Home Theater). I think the extra one (I can't open the "show" till Christmas) will end-up being a Dot.... that finds it's way into a bathroom. I like the idea that those Echo devices are also phones. If the wife or I was to fall (and can't get up)... we can call anyone with a simple request/voice command.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on December 14, 2019, 09:44:36 PM
"Eligible Customers" (i.e. Prime) can also buy a Dot right now for 99 cents with an Amazon Music subscription of $7.99 which can be cancelled before the monthly renewal. So for 9 bucks you get a Dot!

amzn.to/34hnZ2Q

Didn't learn about that till after I bought the Input (which comes with a free 3 month Amazon Music membership) but I'm fine with it.  We're selling our other home so I'll be moving those Dots too where we already have 10 devices plus Alexa on our tablets and phone so I don't need any more.  Sometimes more than one device will hear a question and they'll each respond with a different answer! 
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on December 15, 2019, 04:07:48 PM
I've read what... I think I understand as... Alexa enabled fire smart TV's.

The possibilities the new devices and software [app] updates bring is enough to keep a home automation enthusiast day-dreaming... every waking hour.

That is why I started this thread. Yesterdays Science fiction... is actually, very often... today's lifestyle choice. But to have this futurist automation does mean making/changing our lifestyle choices.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: Tuicemen on December 19, 2019, 06:58:01 PM
I remember watching Her just after it was released and  seeing vieos of robots displayed at tech shows. I now just finished watching the first season of "Better then us on" Netflix.
I kept thinking this maybe where Alexa will evolve too.  These echos dots, shows and other devices will shortly be replaced by inexpensive robots.
In the mean time I ordered Amazon echo flex. I can think of several uses for this like ones mentioned here https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DBAUi6qHklR4&ved=2ahUKEwi43vbN9MLmAhWE_J4KHaAvBrMQwqsBMAJ6BAgDEAo&usg=AOvVaw1SuQRfyNuddXHbePHI-_1i
So for me it is better then the echo input which I also considered.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on December 19, 2019, 08:36:00 PM
....... These echos dots, shows and other devices will shortly be replaced by inexpensive robots.

I get a kick out of how old people think..... even though I am often way older than the old people that tickle me. ALL the echo devices.... ARE the inexpensive robots.... that we have dreamed of for so many years.

I know... the paradigm includes humanoid shaped walking talking machines..... and NOT a vague intellect. But, our paradigms are rarely realistic. As they are constructed in our youth, and harden as we age... just like cartilage. So we get stuck with inflexible ideals and expectations (and big ears that don't work so well).

"Her" in the movie.... wasn't a physical robot. She was an Operating System designed to grow and learn. She grew (intellectually) to the point where she and "her kind" out-grew humans (in their understanding of life). And they did so.... without any kind of body... bio or mechanical.

Title: Re: Her
Post by: dave w on December 22, 2019, 10:49:57 AM
I'm still waiting for Robby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fw7PcJcufM
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on December 23, 2019, 06:15:17 AM
I'm still waiting for Robby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fw7PcJcufM

A GREAT.... classic old Scifi movie. Robby, later became the (1st/original) lost in space robot as well.

I own "The day the Earth stood still" on DVD. The first (as I understand it) of the modern Scifi genre (released in 1951).  https://youtu.be/t_M5d8cRzl0

But more interestingly..... our collective mental image-expectation of what a robot is.... may actually come from Houdini magic   https://youtu.be/nwb5EN4U6wc

As much as life often really does imitate art (instead of the other way around). Robots are everywhere in the modern world. And not just Roomba's like the one that vacuums my man-cave, or industrial machines. Most real-life modern robots are mostly software.  Instead of a mechanical  device that imitates a man wearing a suit... that looks like a man-shaped machine.

The 1950's were a wonderful time of button-pushing... CONTROL (I remember it well). But I look forward to a "less-retro" future than the one imagined way back then. And NO.... I don't mean THESE robots either   
https://youtu.be/wrBG8kIiMC0
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 16, 2020, 03:19:40 PM
Would you like that sent to your phone?

That is the question Alexa asked me yesterday.

I was in the kitchen… And asked (Alexa) for a side dish suggestion. I got one that sounded decent. And said “thank you” (A habit left over from my many days of using Bill’s voice commander). Then... to my total surprise.... Alexa asked me if a wanted that (the receipt) sent to my phone. I didn’t know the software was set up to do that. But it is, it will, and it did. So awesome. X10 needs to be a part of this!
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on January 16, 2020, 03:59:46 PM
Would you like that sent to your phone?

That is the question Alexa asked me yesterday.

I was in the kitchen… And asked (Alexa) for a side dish suggestion. I got one that sounded decent. And said “thank you” (A habit left over from my many days of using Bill’s voice commander). Then... to my total surprise.... Alexa asked me if a wanted that (the receipt) sent to my phone. I didn’t know the software was set up to do that. But it is, it will, and it did. So awesome. X10 needs to be a part of this!

X10's problem is that they may think they're a home automation company but they're not. They're simply a marketing company that sells hardware.  They've made some minor tweaks to a forty year old technology to keep selling modules but have never really integrated with other products.  They didn't even have the foresight to include an Alexa skill in their one new product and still haven't two years later!
Title: Re: Her
Post by: Tuicemen on January 16, 2020, 04:25:01 PM
So awesome. X10 needs to be a part of this!
X10 devices can be if you wish! Authinx that supplies (sells) X10 devices appears to have no interest in the Amazon Alexa market.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: dave w on January 16, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Almost like they are taking careful aim before they shoot them selves in the foot.

The foot wouldn’t be so bad. At least a foot wouldn’t be fatal.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 16, 2020, 06:28:25 PM
Oops! Dave w... So sorry... I accidentally edited your post. So sorry.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: dave w on January 16, 2020, 06:33:52 PM
Not a problem, but with Authinx, I'm not so sure about the fatality part.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 16, 2020, 06:38:38 PM
X10's problem is that they may think they're a home automation company but they're not. They're simply a marketing company that sells hardware.  They've made some minor tweaks to a forty year old technology to keep selling modules but have never really integrated with other products.  They didn't even have the foresight to include an Alexa skill in their one new product and still haven't two years later!

I love the progress home automation is making. I hate seeing X10 left behind.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: petera on January 16, 2020, 06:39:02 PM
I wonder what will be written about ZWave and Zigbee and such like in 40 years time. Will they still be around. I doubt it as much as I doubt the current X10 forum membership will be around to read about it.

Alexa and it's current contenders are just a crop of technologies that will depart the scene as quickly as they arrived to be replaced by something more interesting and amusing. In fact I wonder how many of todays technologies will interface with anything in 40 years time.

The fact is that X10 does work today as it did 40 years ago with a few minor enhancements. There's as many software interfaces for X10 hardware as you can shake a stick at. A basic simple free web UI attached to your network with UNPnP installed and all your X10 devices are available to use. Couple this with one of the many home automation apps available free to download to your phone and you have both local and remote access to your X10 devices and of course the much requested Alexa control.

While there's still people willing to make X10 work with today's software there will be a future for X10. I wouldn't be depending on any commercial outfit to do this but thankfully there are plenty of productive communities working in the background to continue this good work.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 16, 2020, 06:40:26 PM
Not a problem, but with Authinx, I'm not so sure about the fatality part.

Sadly. You’re correct.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on January 16, 2020, 07:16:01 PM
While there's still people willing to make X10 work with today's software there will be a future for X10. I wouldn't be depending on any commercial outfit to do this but thankfully there are plenty of productive communities working in the background to continue this good work.

For X10 to remain viable as a company they have to sell products.  Most of us here have a lifetime supply of X10 bits already and won't be spending much, if anything, with X10. The stuff will continue to work as long as wires carry electricity in our homes but, sadly, the company can't survive.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: petera on January 16, 2020, 07:24:53 PM
While there's still people willing to make X10 work with today's software there will be a future for X10. I wouldn't be depending on any commercial outfit to do this but thankfully there are plenty of productive communities working in the background to continue this good work.

For X10 to remain viable as a company they have to sell products.  Most of us here have a lifetime supply of X10 bits already and won't be spending much, if anything, with X10. The stuff will continue to work as long as wires carry electricity in our homes but, sadly, the company can't survive.

And long last new technology innovation. Gives users of X10 hardware the opportunity to buy job lots on eBay for a fraction of their original purchase price. Stocking up on spares as and when they become available. Not much future for today's X10 manufacturers as you say.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 16, 2020, 09:37:19 PM
.... Most of us here have a lifetime supply of X10 bits already and won't be spending much, if anything, with X10..... the company can't survive. 

Everything worth inventing has already been invented.

Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899. Mr. Deull's most famous attributed utterance is that "everything that can be invented has been invented." Most patent attorneys have also heard that the quote is apocryphal.

I had hoped with this thread (and others) to point out that much... if not MOST.... of what I am doing with Home Automation today was not even theoretical a dozen years ago. Although I have always (well... nearly 20 years) thought, planned, and made real efforts to have a true "smart home". I even had (a windows based) voice control a decade before Amazon and Google devices.

Turning lights, (and sprinklers) on and off (using elaborate means).... has been what X10 excelled at. But Home Automation itself has changed. What we will be doing with this Home Automation stuff in the next decade... hasn't even been dreamed up yet. X10... and every member of these forums... has the ability to dream as big and as bold as anyone else anywhere on Earth.



Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 20, 2020, 10:45:12 AM
It's true that X10 has never been as slick as the newer technologies that do the work for you.  The problem is, when those companies don't see sufficient profit, they shut the door and say "tough luck kid!"  We've seen this over and over.  The latest is with Spectrum who use an open standard (Zigbee) but then lock the firmware to not work outside their environment.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191212/12271843569/spectrum-customers-stuck-with-thousands-home-security-gear-they-cant-use.shtml

As a result, people who invested hundreds at least (one reported $1200) are stuck without a way to use the products.  There is no way you can trust a commercial enterprise to keep a closed standard on a proprietary server running for any length of time.  Heck, I imagine the users of Spectrum's system figured they were safe since it was Zigbee in the backbone.  Turns out, not so much.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: petera on January 20, 2020, 04:40:56 PM
Yes and with the shut shop comes another doorstop controller and nobody either willing or able to provide any further support for it. The same can’t be said of X10. Here we are still discussing it and some even a bit more than that.

The idea of a manufacturer providing and maintaining server facilities for their product long term is a bit of a pipe dream. Best they just supply the hardware along with the protocol and get on with their next venture instead of trying to lock in their customer base.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 20, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
If only they could all do like itead Sonoff and provide the cloud based devices people want today as well as leaving the hardware hackable so when they lose interest, users have more than a paper weight.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: petera on January 20, 2020, 09:24:31 PM
Yes the open source approach. They get to build and sell the hardware and leave the rest to the user. Closed source has a limited life cycle. In fairness some companies took that approach in the past. As soon as they finished with their product they released the protocol into the wild and let others add their own spin to it. Some very interesting projects grew out of this concept.

I think the goal these days is to sweat as much profit as possible from the marketplace and kill the project and move on to the next great idea. X10 is a complete polar opposite.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 21, 2020, 12:23:41 AM
Maybe you guys missed the memo..... most of this automation stuff is what's called "cutting edge". OR... like most hobbyists call their ever-changing equipment "Bleeding edge".   

I paid well over a thousand bucks for my (Linux based) flat-screen TV, some years ago. But it was HUGE... being over 40 inches. Much better than the 36 inch (non-processor driven) tubed TV it replaced (although the price was similar). I've regularly upgraded or rebuilt my home theater as video technology changes with the seasons.

New technologies will come... and GO. You don't have to play.... but it is a pay-to-play world. If you want to enjoy a hobby like Home Automation the first thing you need to do is get yourself some money. 

There is NO WAY... anyone can sell products without a profit... and stay in business.

Many of the products being sold today.... will be pitched for trash in the not too distance future. I am sure every adult buying these products knows that. All this can be said about X10 (again), Microsoft, Apple, any and every android or Linux version... all of it. But most adults also know and accept... that life isn't forever either. We need to live it and enjoy it today. Worrying about someone else "making a buck" will never improve you own... or anyone else life.
 
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 21, 2020, 11:44:27 AM
Perhaps someone missed the memo, but apparently the world is getting warmer because we cut down all the trees to use in Alexa gadgets.  But, if we just throw them in a landfill, they will become rain forests again.  No worries.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 21, 2020, 12:15:00 PM
Perhaps someone missed the memo, but apparently the world is getting warmer because we cut down all the trees to use in Alexa gadgets.  But, if we just throw them in a landfill, they will become rain forests again.  No worries.

Oh give me a break! I am not some 13 year old girl. The "world" has already been warmer... AND COLDER. the only consistency about weather/climate... is it changes.

Fearful humans have been wringing their [collective] hands worrying about the "End-of-Days" since.... the beginning. It's (the FEAR) is in our DNA! You don't have to use the Internet to announce to the world how fearful you are. Most of us understand the human condition.... even if you don't. Don't let your deep-rooted superstitions control your feelings and your ability to reason.

Mankind can NOT crawl back to our caves. We are on a forward looking-moving journey. And like it or NOT.... there is NO turning back. MILLIONS of Luddites have fallen to way-side before you..... and countless millions or even BILLIONS more will also past into the history of the forgotten.   

Title: Re: Her
Post by: dave w on January 21, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
Oh give me a break! I am not some 13 year old girl. The "world" has already been warmer... AND COLDER. the only consistency about weather/climate... is it changes.
Apparently Gretta is upset that her finger wagging and sneers did not spur the UN into ordering CO2 filters be tamped up cows butts.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 21, 2020, 03:49:10 PM
Apparently Gretta is upset that her finger wagging and sneers did not spur the UN into ordering CO2 filters be tamped up cows butts.

How DARE they! I feel so sorry for Gretta. Child performers trade their childhoods for fame. I hope it works out well for her.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 22, 2020, 10:52:16 AM
That would be a methane filter.  The CO2 should be on the other end.   rofl
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 22, 2020, 10:59:10 AM
That would be a methane filter.  The CO2 should be on the other end.   rofl

That's RIGHT! And we no-longer need to worry about methane...... as the old "hole in the ozone" seemingly healed itself. Or... maybe that fad just lost traction, or government research funds ran out (that is what killed the "returning ice-age"). New decades bring new ways to fleece the taxpayers. I hear "threats from space".... may cost taxpayers TRILLIONS in the near future.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 22, 2020, 11:02:34 AM
The hole in the ozone layer is as large as it was in the 80's when we fixed it by banning CFC's.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 22, 2020, 05:56:09 PM
...... in the 80's when we fixed it by banning CFC's.

 rofl :)% rofl :)%

Yeah.... people "fixed" the planet.... by passing a law. Do you mind if I share that silliness with the rest of the Internet. A lot of people would get a real laugh at reading that.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on January 23, 2020, 01:24:08 AM
I believe bkenobi was being facetious with his comment.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 23, 2020, 09:26:47 AM
I believe bkenobi was being facetious with his comment.

Thank God. I wondered.

So many people just don't want to admit that so many people actually believed in the last "end-of-days" hoax. Now that it has been fully exposed.

And.....many people choose to dis-believe in the modern understanding of DNA. We don't have to call them Luddites (but that is what they are). We have our DNA programming. Which is a mixed blessing, double edged sword, or paradox of thought (or make-up your own analogy). Our own brains deceive us in our ability to reason our way forward. So.... mankind's progress forward is stalled... waiting for the older Luddites to die-off as newer generations form more realistic paradigms.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: dave w on January 23, 2020, 02:26:37 PM
So.... mankind's progress forward is stalled... waiting for the older Luddites to die-off as newer generations form more realistic paradigms.
Yeah. Sure.  "Realistic paradigms" like Gretta and AOC are forming.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 23, 2020, 03:20:55 PM
Yeah. Sure.  "Realistic paradigms" like Gretta and AOC are forming.

You never can tell.

Large/long swaths have been cut from civilizations history... like the dark ages... where mankind failed to progress. There has even been eras (or so some think) where mankind slipped backward. It happens. I'd guess it's more like two steps forward, and one step back. I know "for a fact" (I read the report) the American Government made a decision to just let technical progress rest. To wait out a generation, and let the workers die off. Before making more changes and progress.

And.... maybe brighter minds correctly made that that decision. From what I've seen many smart people can't envision much more change.... or even what change is already all around them.   
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 24, 2020, 08:42:35 AM
I'll just leave this here. It summarizes the minority opinion on the forum nicely without being shouted over.

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/3a8dpn/sonos-makes-it-clear-you-no-longer-own-the-things-you-buy
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 24, 2020, 09:19:11 AM

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/3a8dpn/sonos-makes-it-clear-you-no-longer-own-the-things-you-buy

........ It summarizes the minority opinion on the forum.

The "minority opinion"?!?!? That doesn't make sense. It's a FACT that Internet Technology CAN NOT be owned. We have moved from an ownership society... to a pay-to-play... service-for-fee society.  This is universally well known. And... I'd think that most adults of any serious age... are a little off-put by this (past) turn of events. But... it pretty much happen many years ago.

Things change. Everything.... always changes. Our entire lives are nothing less than dynamic change. That part of our brain that tells us that things remain consistence and the same... may have had an important part in human evolution. But today... it is just lying to us.

The days of $5 per piece X10 specials are pass (except on ebay). Other home automation products are everywhere (for cheap). What we do with home automation is WAY different today than just turning lights on and off. AND.... everything that we do with Home Automation (and EVERYTHING else) is only temporary.

What we enjoy each month.... for the rest of our lives... may be dependent on that months disposable income. But now that I think about it... hasn't that more-or-less always been the way life worked?

(Some of) These technology changes can be heart breaking (at lease to me). But there is nothing we can do about it. The efforts to stop time may seen noble. But the struggle is futile. Or is it: resistance is futile (the entire Borg story plot explained... in one paragraph).
Title: Re: Her
Post by: bkenobi on January 24, 2020, 09:36:30 AM
The "minority opinion"?!?!?

I could be wrong. Maybe it's the silent majority. There is certainly a component that is vocal for sure.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 24, 2020, 10:28:12 AM
I could be wrong. Maybe it's the silent majority. There is certainly a component that is vocal for sure.

I myself... have no real way to know what others are thinking. But I thought the major objection to the new WiFi/server-phone based/ big corporate-owned modern Home Automation.... was a "loss of control".   

Keep in mind.... whereas most people come to Home Automation with a "problem".... they stay for the element of control that is achieved with Home Automation. Don't get me wrong. I am NOT calling X10 users control freaks. But... if the shoe fits.

And there is the paradox with modern HA. The desired control is achieved with a technology which the user has NO control over.
Title: Re: Her
Post by: Tuicemen on January 24, 2020, 10:40:22 AM

Keep in mind.... whereas most people come to Home Automation with a "problem".... they stay for the element of control that is achieved with Home Automation. Don't get me wrong. I am NOT calling X10 users control freaks. But... if the shoe fits.
Problem? most people?  Not sure that is accurate, I think people that look at Home Automation do it for convenience.
 They may stay with home automation for the control that is achieved but it may also be that they have become lazy. rofl
Title: Re: Her
Post by: brobin on January 24, 2020, 11:00:25 AM
Even our venerable X10 modules will one day no longer work... when wireless power  replaces electrical wiring!
Title: Re: Her
Post by: HA Dave on January 24, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Problem? most people?  Not sure that is accurate, I think people that look at Home Automation do it for convenience.
 They may stay with home automation for the control that is achieved but it may also be that they have become lazy. rofl

Reminds me of an advertisement I saw for Canada recently
Title: Re: Her
Post by: Tuicemen on January 24, 2020, 06:40:51 PM
 rofl