X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: nabril15 on November 22, 2020, 02:19:03 PM
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Hello all
As proud as I was and am to "show off" my x10 set-up when guests used to come over for dinner, I'm equally as frustrated when commands don't get to where they're supposed to.
My MT14 controlls all modules, and up to 2 days ago, everything worked fine and on time; no new electronics or chargers were plugged in at the house.
Since those 2 days, modules number 5 and 8 will not respond to a button press on the controller. Number 5 is an xps2 that controls the pool pump, and number 8 is an xps3 switch for outdoor lights. I repeat that they worked fine 2 days ago, and I now must walk out to those 5 and 8 switches to turn on and off.
I moved the mt14 to various outlets around the house, and 5 and 8 still fail; other numbers work fine.
An unused IBM rr501 equivalent set to number 1 clicks repeatedly when I manually press 8 on and off. If I press on once, the rr501 clicks 2 or 3 times in quick sequence.
Did the mt14 go bad? What can I try? I know there's an x10 tester of sorts available, but I don't have it obviously.
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If you temporarily reset the problem X10 modules address. To a known working X10 address the MT14 can control. Do they work or still not work?
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Brian
Is the H for helper??
I changed the xps3 number 8 to other known working numbers, and it failed to respond from the remote or from the mt14a.
Manually pressing the rocker turned it on and off.
I did not test with the number 5 xps2 because it's harder to get to physically.
The rr501, set to 1, doesn't respond to the remote. Could it be the culprit? That it wrnt bad and is causing major noise on the lines and thus clicking repeatedly when i press 8 on and off with the mt14 plugged to the same outlet?
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The remotes have to use an X10 transceiver. The MT14 is power line only. So you have to have a transceiver to process the X10 remotes.
If you use the On Off button on the RR501. Does it still click a few times? It has sensor in it. To see if it is On or Off. So it doesn't try to change state if it is in the state the command was. If it clicks a few times. Either the sensor in it is failing or the ratchet switch is dirty.
If it responds to an X10 command on Unit Code 8. Something is wrong. It only has Unit 1 and Unit 9 addresses. Either the MT14 is sending the wrong unit code or the RR501 is going bad.
The RR501 has a power line transmitter in it so it could be sending garbage on to the power lines. It also is polite. If it see an X10 power line signal or noise fooling it. It will not send the received RF signal back on the power lines.
Do you have any X10 power line repeaters between the two incoming power lines. That could be causing issues?
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Thank you Brian
Yes, I have an rf receiver plugged in for radio commands, and that's the one clicking repeatedly when I press 8 on; I'm sorry if I got my device names wrong.
I've had an xtbr repeater plugged in to the outlet closest to the inside sub panel.
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Does it also click repeatedly if you push the local On Off button on the module itself or only when commanded from the MT14?
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Hey Brian
Clicking on the rr501 by push of button by hand works and sounds fine = 1 click.
I mentioned the rr501's woes in case it helped troubleshoot the 2 switches that are my main stressors - the xps2 (code 5) that controls the pool pump, and the xps3 (code 8 ) that controls landscape lights; both of those require going outside to turn on and off by hand at the desired times.
In the same box where that xps2 is, sits another xps3 that failed to receive signals as of recent. If I push its rocker in and hold it in, the lights come on. If I release the rocker, the power cuts out, and it does not respond to any signals.
Could this faulty xps3 be causing noise or blocking the signals from reaching codes 5 and 8 perhaps??
I'm gasping for a solution.
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It does sound like you have a power line signal problem to the problem modules
Is the XTBR on the panel for the problem modules?
If it is you may want to look at its LED to see if it is showing any patterns. While sending signals and with no traffic being sent.
If it is the earlier revision with the X10 Boost Outlet on it. You may want to see if the MT14 can do anything from that location.
The XPS2 that seems to go dead. May have an issue or the wiring to it may have developed issues. It does not have any X10 power line transmitter in it. So it should not cause problems unless its receiver circuit has a problem. It is also a 220V module so it uses both incoming lines
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Thank you Brian
The XTBR is closest to the subpanel that feeds all of the house's interior circuits. The 2 trouble switches happen to be on the main panel that's outside; it doesn't have an outlet on it.
The xps2 works fine on the hand rocker, and it is relatively new. I bought it used, however, so it's not truly new.
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Sorry I misread one of your posts.
The XPS3 next to the XPS2 that seems to stop working after pushing its rocker paddle. May have an issue.
The LED patterns on the XTBR may still give you come clues. Do you also have a phase coupler near it. As JV Digital says a phase coupler can help to get signals to the other phase.
If you have not tried disconnecting electronics in the home and testing may help. Things like chargers and other equipment that was fine in the past. Can sometimes deteriorate over time. Especially any on the same panel as the problem switches.
Did you try the MT14 in an outlet powered by the panel feeding the problem modules?
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Ok. Some testing from this morning:
1. Using the remote to power code 8 on and off makes the xtbr blink red twice.
2. Using the mt014 plugged into the same outlet as the xtbr, makes it blink red 5 times.
3. I took the mt14 outside and plugged it in to outlets on the same panel as the xps3 code 8
The result : the first try - no response. A second spontaneous try of code 5, turned it OFF, but not back on. In other words, I tried code 5 for grins, and it turned code 5 off (the pump which was running).
Agghhh
I have unplugged any extra anything that wasn't there during the 100% working state days ago.
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When trying to locate a naughty device in your home, one approach is to turn off all circuits outside of your immediate test (just the send and receive circuits on). Test and confirm function. If working, turn on one breaker at a time between tests until it doesn't work. Proceed until all known bad circuits are located. Then, on each bad circuit, locate all devices and turn them off to see if they cause an issue. I used this method in conjunction with my XTBR to determine where I needed to install filters. I recently found that my new electric reclining couch causes noise and requires a filter!
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Thank you ObiBen
I am about to try that approach again because this is frustrating. It's as if the house's wiring is defying me, challenging, and rebelling.
I have 3 panels, 1 main and 2 subs, that feed all of the x10 devices in the house. So it's difficult to isolate circuits and breakers with so many variables.
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Do you have any phase couplers on any of the panels? To get the X10 commands from one phase to the other phase.
If you have a plug in style X10 module. You could also move it around to find possible low signal levels.
A crude X10 coupler. To do some tests with. An electric stove or oven on hi. Maybe an electric dryer depending on if it has electronic controls. Can get some X10 signals between the phases.
One thing to consider. The XPS2 is 220VAC and the X10 signal has to be on both phases and depending on the signals polarity. Actually reduce or cancel the X10 signal on an XPS2.
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Brian, I do not have any phase couplers since everything has worked fine until now.
I will try the oven or dryer test to troubleshoot code 5 some more. Thankfully, that xps2 controls a variable speed pool motor that powers itself on and off by itself. So if that xps2 stays on eternally, the pump works fine on its own; yes, I could remove the xps2 and just wire the motor directly to the source lines.
The code 8 xps3 is the one that continues to challenge. That one is on a panel at the back of a gazebo that feeds a few gfci outlets and a small refrigerator; nothing else is plugged in out here.
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2. Using the mt014 plugged into the same outlet as the xtbr, makes it blink red 5 times.
5 equally spaced flashes means a time-out when programming mode options. I believe what really happened is one flash indicating a transmission, followed by a 4-flash sequence indicating the transmission was aborted due to a collision. That either means powerline noise or overlapping X10 commands.
If everything worked fine until 2 days ago, something happened to cause the problems. It may be something as simple as a holiday decoration with LED bulbs. Maybe a neighbor sharing the same utility transformer added a noise generator. Or perhaps an existing electronic device in your home is acting up.
Since you are having trouble with devices 5 and 8, are they on the same phase that the XTBR is plugged into? Since you don't have a coupler, even a minor signal sucker on that phase could prevent an adequate signal from reaching them. Or there may be a noise source on that circuit or phase.
Jeff
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Since you are having trouble with devices 5 and 8, are they on the same phase that the XTBR is plugged into? Since you don't have a coupler, even a minor signal sucker on that phase could prevent an adequate signal from reaching them. Or there may be a noise source on that circuit or phase.
Jeff
thanks Jeff, and those are all valid points. The XTBR is plugged in to the outlet right below the garage's main panel that feeds neither 5 or 8.
The misbehavior started before the Christmas lights went up, so I cant blame that.
Code 5 runs off the main panel outside, code 8 runs off an outside subpanel unique to gazebo, and all the other x10 stuff (mt14 and transceivers) runs off the garage's subpanel.
I've been hesitant to shut off circuits 1 by 1 because I have 3 panels, so that will add a lot more possibilities. The majority of the household crap that is plugged in goes to the garage's subpanel. The gazebo panel has a small refrigerator plugged in that has been there since day 1, and the main panel has the pool pump, the pool light, and 2 regular outlets.
I guess I could try this approach to hopefully find a culprit circuit. This testing will be more complicated because a visiting family-in-law owns 3 ipads that are constantly charging. Of course, I will unplug them to test.
1) Turn off circuits in the gazebo and test
2) Turn off circuits in the main panel and test
3) Turn off circuits in the garage panel and test
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another frustrating update.
I took the MT14 and plugged it into the gazebo outlets since they share the same panel as the faulty xps3 with code 8.
I was able to control other codes that are wired to the garage subpanel, but code 8 did not respond. Other codes responded but they took multiple button presses.
I returned the mt14 to its usual outlet inside the house, and tried to test the normal codes. No code responded at all, and in pressing the buttons, I don't see the screen status switch from off to on. I even tried to change the clock, but the + and - buttons didnt respond.
Can we conclude that my mt14 died TODAY since it worked 12 minutes ago? I can't even change the clock on it!!. Even though it remains plugged in, would switching the batteries perhaps fix its issues??
Assuming that it's dead, what I'm leaning towards, do I have another option besides getting another mt14 for automating on/off times? I recall reading some sort of x10 device that can be programmed/controlled by a cellphone app?
EDIT - apparently the MT14 froze since the time remained the same for an hour. I removed all power, and it's working again. Pheww.
Now, onto more testing with that code 8.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be confusing "panels" and "phases." As I understand, you have 3 circuit breaker panels throughout your home. Your home is fed with two "phases" (actually 1 split phase, but that's for another time) that are called L1 & L2 each carrying 110 volts. Without a coupler between L1 & L2 the X10 signal has to go all the way back to the street transformer to travel between the two. Each of your 3 panels contains circuits fed by L1 & L2. So, even if the MT14 is plugged into an outlet fed by the same panel as the light fixture, they could be on different phases. As you look at the panel, every other breaker going down is L1 and the others in between are L2. The photo below designates them as A & B phases, same thing. So if the top breaker serves the outlet and the next one down serves the light fixture, the X10 signal has to go all the way back to the street to get there. A coupler in one of the panels provides a shortcut so a stronger signal gets to the fixture. If you already knew all this I apologize but it seemed like there might be some confusion.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be confusing "panels" and "phases." As I understand, you have 3 circuit breaker panels throughout your home. Your home is fed with two "phases" (actually 1 split phase, but that's for another time) that are called L1 & L2 each carrying 110 volts. Without a coupler between L1 & L2 the X10 signal has to go all the way back to the street transformer to travel between the two. Each of your 3 panels contains circuits fed by L1 & L2. So, even if the MT14 is plugged into an outlet fed by the same panel as the light fixture, they could be on different phases. As you look at the panel, every other breaker going down is L1 and the others in between are L2. The photo below designates them as A & B phases, same thing. So if the top breaker serves the outlet and the next one down serves the light fixture, the X10 signal has to go all the way back to the street to get there. A coupler in one of the panels provides a shortcut so a stronger signal gets to the fixture. If you already knew all this I apologize but it seemed like there might be some confusion.
Brobin. I did know this, and there's no need to apologize; i appreciate your collaboration.
I am aware of the different phases, and I completely understand your explanation.
However, all of my x10 devices worked fine until X days ago WITHOUT a coupler. What changed? Some visiting relatives have 3 ipads and laptops charging most of the time, and perhaps that's the culprit. If I remember correctly, the code 8 failure started prior to their arrival.
Moving on: I'm looking at a plug-in type of coupler such as the Signalinc model that plugs in to the dryer's outlet. Would that be a good start in strengthening my x-10 network?
Or, if I buy the passive phase device that requires wiring it directly to the panel, could I install it near any of my 3 panels? The 2 outside are easier to get to since they're not embedded into the wall, so I could add an exterior junction box to house the coupler.
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Chargers and computer power supplies are just some of the signal suckers and noise makers. You may want to see if temporarily disconnecting the ipads change anything.
An electronic device may also be deteriorating and now is causing problems.
The JV Didital XTB-IIR is of course the gold standard for X10 signals.
The Dryer signal adapters where made in two types. Passive between the two lines and a repeater between the two lines. Along with 3 or 4 pin versions of each. Discontinued a long time ago. Maybe an auction site would have one. The repeater model was seen occasionally causing issues if you had a AHP CM15A.
On the chance you have not read Jeff's tutorials. http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
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An electronic device may also be deteriorating and now is causing problems.
The JV Didital XTB-IIR is of course the gold standard for X10 signals.
The Dryer signal adapters where made in two types. Passive between the two lines and a repeater between the two lines. Along with 3 or 4 pin versions of each. Discontinued a long time ago. Maybe an auction site would have one. The repeater model was seen occasionally causing issues if you had a AHP CM15A.
THanks Brian
I have an XTBR plugged in to the outlet nearest the garage panel, and I did find the 3 and 4 pin plug-in type of coupler on ebay. I think that I will give it a try to see if I can return to my normal and running state of 2 months ago.
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The plug-in XTBR you have is a great amplifier but doesn't couple the phases. The XTB-IIR, a different unit entirely, is your best bet as both a coupler and an amplifier. I've built 3 or 4 of them and if you're handy with a soldering iron and have built kits before it's a fun project. Otherwise just order the assembled version. To answer your question, yes, you can install it near any of the panels and it'll work for the whole house. Jeff only has a limited number left so get one while you still can! It's worth it's weight in gold for solving X10 problems.
http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-iir.pdf
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My home has 2 main panels next to a CVT and 1 sub panel located in my shop. I installed a XTB-IIR after much testing of what was causing my issues via XTBR and switching circuits on/off. I found that after adding the XTB-IIR I was much better off, but I then had to also add a few filters (I opted for SmartHome 10Amp units) around the house. The XTB-IIR does a very good job of coupling phases and amplifying signals.
I suspect the added devices are more of a problem than you think. I found that surge strips/battery backups were a huge problem as were phone chargers and set top boxes. My washer/dryer, refrigerator, and furnace circuit boards caused issues. Heck, I just bought a motorized reclining couch that even caused problems. I eliminated all the easy ones and found my system was working well enough to be happy with it. But, when someone comes over and plugs in a rogue phone charger it can break devices on the circuit they plugged into.
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good morning incredibly-helpful x10ers
I finally carved some time to test the garage panel circuits one by 1 without disturbing the household too much.
I powered off 3 or 4 breakers at a time, and press 8ON on the MT14 and the remote control. I repeated that until I went through the whole panel, and I was not able to conclude anything.
I left the MT14 plugged in the same outlet that's part of the test panel throughout all the testing for the sake of not introducing another variable.
I will re-conclude that the XPS3 behind code 8 is unable to receive the signal as of 2 weeks, and he has decided to stop working as an X10 device; I can and do manually go out to it to press it on and off every night since it controls the landscape lights. I wish that I had a spare XPS3 to test my conclusion, but in essence, I will just have to replace it.
In the name of thoroughness and since I'm working from home and have some time, I will repeat the same test. I will plug the MT14 into gazebo outlets that share the same panel as the xps3 code 8, but I will turn off the breakers in the garage's panel - the one with all the household electronics.
I will also be looking for a Signalinc plug-in coupler as my xmas gift.
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I'm not exactly sure of your configuration. Turning off all breakers in the garage will help identify issues sourced from the garage panel. However, if there are issues of the 2 main panels this will not likely help. I recommend turning off all breakers in the system except those you are testing. The 2 main panels are on the same mains as the sub so leaving those main panels on will make it impossible to isolate circuits as you have found.
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If you have not tried it yet.
Rotate the House and Unit Code Dials on the XPS3.
We have see some reports of the dial switches getting dirty and a module is actually on a different address than the dials indicate.
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Rotate the House and Unit Code Dials on the XPS3.
We have see some reports of the dial switches getting dirty and a module is actually on a different address than the dials indicate.
thanks Brian and a great tip. I just tried that, and it still doesnt respond to code 8 or another number.
I'm not exactly sure of your configuration. Turning off all breakers in the garage will help identify issues sourced from the garage panel. However, if there are issues of the 2 main panels this will not likely help. I recommend turning off all breakers in the system except those you are testing. The 2 main panels are on the same mains as the sub so leaving those main panels on will make it impossible to isolate circuits as you have found.
I shall try this approach this weekend.
Has anyone heard of or used this device, the X10 CP000? At $12 with shipping it sounds too cheap to be effective in comparison to the xpcp or the plug-in types that average $40 or so.
https://www.ebay.com/i/152467553790?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=152467553790&targetid=934793861976&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9052971&poi=&campaignid=10897343926&mkgroupid=106040611134&rlsatarget=pla-934793861976&abcId=9300403&merchantid=116324592&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtqL-BRC0ARIsAF4K3WHf6VT0jSMuiw1Paki5ZzR7oYWJ4xR1--oUnFL6qwuUICvfZv_w7HUaAlhgEALw_wcB
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I tried a passive coupler at one point and found it worked just ok. I removed it and installed the XTB-IIR and haven't looked back. It is obviously more expensive but it does more than it claims IMO. You can try that device but you are no better off than plugging in your 220V device to bridge things. If you already have a 220V dryer or water heater or ... you should already have the two legs bridged when those devices are running. If your system works when a 220V device is running but not when it's turned off, this device might help. If that doesn't change anything, I'd skip it.
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I tried a passive coupler at one point and found it worked just ok. I removed it and installed the XTB-IIR and haven't looked back.
where can I find this? I've searched to no avail, and I'm not a soderer.
EDIT - never mind, Jeff has them. Duh
The XTB-IIR has to be hardwired to the panel, no?
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ANY coupler has to be wired or plugged into both legs whether at the panel or elsewhere. One option is to put in a 220 volt outlet next to an electrical panel and plug the XTB-IIR (or a passive coupler) into that outlet. I've done that with every XTB-IIR I've installed. In fact the one I use now is plugged in about 50' away from the panel and works great. Installing a 220 volt outlet by the panel is a simple job but if you're not comfortable doing it, an electrician can do it in under an hour. We can walk you through the steps if you go that way.
As for the CP000 (aka XPCP) passive coupler (https://www.x10.com/xpcp-ratio-passive-coupler.html) read this: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.pdf
We've all tried them - as well as all the other coupler repeaters - with varying success. The XTB-IIR is, far and away, the best solution and will save you hours of future troubleshooting. To over simplify, it "outshouts" most of the noise on the powerline so that the X10 signal reaches its intended target - not unlike a radio station that boosts its transmitter power to reach more listeners. It does so on BOTH legs of the powerline to provide a robust signal throughout the home. Passive ones do nothing but bridge the weak signal to the other leg and the other amplifier/repeaters don't "shout as loud" to overcome line noise. That's not to say you won't need any filters but certainly fewer, if any. Over almost 40 years I've tried every signal coupler/booster/repeater/amplifier from X10, Leviton, Smarthome, and ACT and none came close to the XTB-IIR's performance. $190 may seem like a big bite but trust us, it's worth every penny and more!
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@brobin
Excellent advice and opinion.
I will do another test with the dryer running to confirm if I have coupling issues to solve.
I reiterate that 2 months ago, everything worked fine and instantly, and now one XPS3 is determined to challenge me!! I get it, electronic devices break down over time, but it's still frustrating. Three weeks ago I didn't have phase issues or anything like that, and now I'm looking at a $190 xtbIIr possibly or some other solution to try.
Perhaps a cheaper start would be to replace that XPS3, and if the new one works, I'm done. That XPS3 sits in a metal junction box beneath a gazebo roof. While I have it covered and protected well, humidity will find its way anywhere. It works fine manually, but it won't receive the signal. I guess I could take it out, have it temporarily replace one of my wall switches inside, and then I could really test within the same panel. That's a bit of work, and something tells me that it still won't receive the signal.
What does the xtbIIr look like? Does it wire to the panel or does it plug in as you mentioned in the last reply?
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There's a picture of the XTB-IIR on this page: http://jvde.us/xtb-iir.htm
You can wire it directly to a pair of breakers or attach a 220 volt plug and use it with a matching socket. (see below)
You can certainly try another switch first - they do go bad from time to time.
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ACT dropped their X10 and A10 devices a few years ago.
The ACT CP000 is a passive coupler for X10 and their enhanced X10 protocol A10.
Wires into the breaker panel like an XPCP.
I still have a few of there active phase repeaters in my storage boxes.
XTB-IIR is now in use. With WGL V572 an all address X10 RF receiver in its X10 Boost Jack
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I hardwired mine into a 220 breaker next to the panel. If I had to do it over I'd ad an outlet as suggested.
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Are the high power devices in your home. 220VAC or 208VAC?
Some housing developments and buildings. Are 3 Phase. With two of the three lines and neutral feeding individual homes. Power company alternates which two of the three to feed each home. To balance the total load. In that setup the high power feed is 208VAC and 120VAC line to neutral. The X10 commands in that case are 30 degrees shifted. I believe the X10 protocol does also send a command 30 degrees later.
While the split single phase would be 220VAC. 220VAC line to line. 120VAC line to neutral.
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These links provide details...
http://https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power.htm (http://https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power.htm)
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/coupling.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/coupling.html)
https://digilander.libero.it/cvolpato/elettronica/X-10_Transmission_Theory.htm (https://digilander.libero.it/cvolpato/elettronica/X-10_Transmission_Theory.htm)
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Are the high power devices in your home. 220VAC or 208VAC?
I'm fairly sure that they are 220. I've measured 220 at the pool pump feed.
Can you confirm if I just did what should be THE test to prove if the xps3 is faulty?
That xps3 is wired directly to an outlet that is a foot right behind it; it is wired to that outlet.
I plugged in the mt14 to said outlet, but the switch did not respond.
Is, in fact, that xps3 not responding to signals for some reason, and thus faulty???
If you think that it's still inconclusive, then I'll do the test by killing all power to the house and switching breakers one at a time. I can't do that because much needed laundering is being done.
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If the switch and controller are on the same circuit within a few feet of each other and it doesn't respond it's very likely that, assuming the controller is good, the switch has failed.
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an update, in the name of continuity and education
I replaced the infamous code 8 XPS3 thanks to an angel that lives in this planet, and it is controllable now by the MT014; the walking up to it is over.
I had to move it to another outlet for it to work, so my quest for the search for interference will definitely continue once we go on our holiday break from work, and I can shut the house down for a few minutes and test circuit by circuit. I had surgery on my left hand yesterday, so that will add time as well.
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Best wishes for a speedy recovery and #:) on the switch!
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Best wishes for a speedy recovery and #:) on the switch!
thank you brobin. Believe it or not, the recovery still continues from the surgeries. I have some hand strength, but twisting open a beer, for example, ain't happening yet. It's frustrating.
I resurface this thread, since that new and obedient xps3 mentioned many times before, NUMBER 8, has decided to act wacky.
As of a week or so, the switch turns on at random times during the day, even though no x10 signal is sent between the hours of 6:30am and 6pm. So, all day every day, nothing is turned on or off by the MT14 or my remote. Yet, I will look to the patio at times during the day, and I'll see the lights controlled by number 8 in their on state.
What changed in those 4 days? The sister in law that I think I mentioned at the OP, is back in town with her alarm clock, and ipad charger, and hair dryer. However, none of those generate x10 signals, specifically #on #8.
Any guesses as to what's causing 8on to get to that switch? Or is there a squirrel back there pressing the outlet cover just to mess with me??
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I know that hand surgery can be a slow recovery. My wife has had it done in both hands for arthritis and has never recovered full strength.
On to the whacky XPS3 controlled by the MT14. It sounds like the MT14 may responding to motion all the time rather than just dusk to dawn and may need to be reset. A simple test of this theory would be to simply remove the batteries from the MT14 for a day and observe or, if that involves a ladder, just change the code on the XPS3 instead.
If that proves to be the problem you can change the setting as described in the attachment. Let me know what you find. You can also try unplugging your SIL's stuff for a day as a second test.
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I know that hand surgery can be a slow recovery. My wife has had it done in both hands for arthritis and has never recovered full strength.
On to the whacky XPS3 controlled by the MT14. It sounds like the MT14 may responding to motion all the time rather than just dusk to dawn and may need to be reset. A simple test of this theory would be to simply remove the batteries from the MT14 for a day and observe or, if that involves a ladder, just change the code on the XPS3 instead.
If that proves to be the problem you can change the setting as described in the attachment. Let me know what you find. You can also try unplugging your SIL's stuff for a day as a second test.
I shall remain patient with my hands and forearms..
I do not own a MS14 nor any motion sensor stuff. I was referencing my mt14 controller that turns lights on and off as programmed.
I can unplug her stuff as a test, but no signal is sent during the day. Unless funky wiring in the xps3 is causing it to come on, it's really strange.
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Sorry for the confusion, I misread the model number. Make sure that the timer entry isn't set to 'security mode' in the MT14. To figure out if the problem is in the MT14 or XPS3 you could unplug the MT14 for a day and see if the problem goes away. If it still happens then at least we know the MT14 isn't the cause. What other controllers/remotes do you have? What Housecode are you using for the XPS3? Is it 'M' by any chance?
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The MT14A has manual buttons to turn on and off modules. Not related to what is programmed into it.
So you can try to turn on and off the modules at other times of the day.
That may also see if their is something making power line noise at the times programmed into it.
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The MT14A has manual buttons to turn on and off modules. Not related to what is programmed into it.
So you can try to turn on and off the modules at other times of the day.
That may also see if their is something making power line noise at the times programmed into it.
thanks Brian
yes, I use those on/off buttons to turn off the lights when I see them on; I also use the remote.
For number 8, there is nothing programmed during the day; they come on at 6:15pm, and go off at 11pm.
Between 11am and now, I've turned them off twice because I looked outside and saw them turned on.
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Have you tried unplugging the MT14 to see if the lights stay off? Doing that would confirm or eliminate it as a cause. What House code are you using? You mention that you have a remote which means you also have at least one transceiver. That's another item to unplug and observe. Unplug both and see if the lights stay off. If they do plug the Transceiver back in and see if they stay off. If it does, unplug the that and plug the MT14 back in and observe. Any other controllers in the house? I once had a Mini Controller that would act up sometimes.
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Any chance of neighbouring RF interference. Can the security feature be manually overridden. Maybe you could reset the MT14 to clear any possible conflicts.
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Have you tried unplugging the MT14 to see if the lights stay off? Doing that would confirm or eliminate it as a cause. What House code are you using? You mention that you have a remote which means you also have at least one transceiver. That's another item to unplug and observe. Unplug both and see if the lights stay off. If they do plug the Transceiver back in and see if they stay off. If it does, unplug the that and plug the MT14 back in and observe. Any other controllers in the house? I once had a Mini Controller that would act up sometimes.
Just noticed your comment re a remote. Might be worth getting a list of X10 equipment on the premises before troubleshooting this one.
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Any chance of neighbouring RF interference. Can the security feature be manually overridden. Maybe you could reset the MT14 to clear any possible conflicts.
thanks Peter A
SUre, I guess that's possible, but can RF cause an ON signal to appear? I do have a list, it's not extensive - 2 controllers (mt14 and CR13a palm pad).
I will try the isolations of the MT14 and the transceiver suggested above.
I just learned about the of the security feature on the mT14 or even where it's at. The word security, however, is not displayed on the screen,.
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Another test would be to simply change the House code on the XPS3 and it still happens it would suggest a bad switch. While you're at it, give both code wheels a spin to remove oxidation from the contacts.
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Any chance of neighbouring RF interference. Can the security feature be manually overridden. Maybe you could reset the MT14 to clear any possible conflicts.
thanks Peter A
SUre, I guess that's possible, but can RF cause an ON signal to appear? I do have a list, it's not extensive - 2 controllers (mt14 and CR13a palm pad).
I will try the isolations of the MT14 and the transceiver suggested above.
I just learned about the of the security feature on the mT14 or even where it's at. The word security, however, is not displayed on the screen,.
Quote from the MT14a sales blurb..............................The possibilities are limitless with this intelligent little timer and your array of X10 appliance & light modules. You can even select the "security" mode and have lights turn on and off at different times of the day to simulate an occupied home when you are away.
The fact that you have both RF and PLC in the same environment it opens up possible conflicts,Not sure if a neighbour's setup would be relevant to you but if your neighbour was using RF switching equipment on the same House Code as yourself his RF control could well be affecting yours. In fact with the proliferation of cheap RF electronics anything operating on the same band as your RF could cause interference.
A solution to this as mentioned above is to change your House Code.As you have two remotes listed you must have a transceiver plugged in to use them,Remove the transceiver from the power outlet and do your tests again. Finally, and highly unlikely make sure the buttons on your remotes are not pressed in the down position. possibly worn or something causing them to stick or something lying on top of them or someone sitting on them at that time of the day rofl Just remove the batteries to check that one.
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The CR13A is an RF device and is not a controller on the power lines.
What Transceiver are you using to translate the X10 RF command back onto the power lines?
Common models are X10 TM751/X10Pro PAT02, X10 RR501/X10Pro PAT01.
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The CR13A is an RF device and is not a controller on the power lines.
What Transceiver are you using to translate the X10 RF command back onto the power lines?
Common models are X10 TM751/X10Pro PAT02, X10 RR501/X10Pro PAT01.
Yes I was referring to the transceiver when he mentioned that he had two remotes. It's just when X10'stops functioning suddenly i always look at all the possibilities both RF and PLC. I think one of those remotes are used for X10 cameras. I wonder if X10 cameras are installed too. Again getting the full list definitely helps to rule out any possibility.
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Again getting the full list definitely helps to rule out any possibility.
thanks again Peter
My very simple setup consists of: 4 xps3's, an xps2, a bulk socket thing, and a ws467. Controlling, I have the mt014, an rr501, and 2 control remote pads.
I think that I cleared the problem with the xps3 with code 8. I cleared its 2 programmed times on the mt014, and added them back. I will confirm tomorrow if it worked for sure. If tomorrow I see the same goofiness, then I'll change house code, remove the mt014, etc.
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Again getting the full list definitely helps to rule out any possibility.
thanks again Peter
My very simple setup consists of: 4 xps3's, an xps2, a bulk socket thing, and a ws467. Controlling, I have the mt014, an rr501, and 2 control remote pads.
I think that I cleared the problem with the xps3 with code 8. I cleared its 2 programmed times on the mt014, and added them back. I will confirm tomorrow if it worked for sure. If tomorrow I see the same goofiness, then I'll change house code, remove the mt014, etc.
That's good news. Hopefully that's done the trick. If not you've plenty of troubleshooting options to choose from. The joys of X10 :)%
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Again getting the full list definitely helps to rule out any possibility.
thanks again Peter
My very simple setup consists of: 4 xps3's, an xps2, a bulk socket thing, and a ws467. Controlling, I have the mt014, an rr501, and 2 control remote pads.
I think that I cleared the problem with the xps3 with code 8. I cleared its 2 programmed times on the mt014, and added them back. I will confirm tomorrow if it worked for sure. If tomorrow I see the same goofiness, then I'll change house code, remove the mt014, etc.
Good news, hope that's the fix!
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Good news, hope that's the fix!
Nope, that's not the fix. The switch and lights kept taunting me yesterday and earlier today. I changed the xp3's number code, but they still came on, so I just changed the house code as was suggested to see.
How would I go about removing any potential security mode on the mt14A? I don't see the word security on the face of the controller at any point at night, when all of my lights are on.
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Good news, hope that's the fix!
Nope, that's not the fix. The switch and lights kept taunting me yesterday and earlier today. I changed the xp3's number code, but they still came on, so I just changed the house code as was suggested to see.
How would I go about removing any potential security mode on the mt14A? I don't see the word security on the face of the controller at any point at night, when all of my lights are on.
See page 9 & 10 of the manual. http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/MT13A.pdf
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thank you
I do not believe that I have a security setting on that code 8 because:
1. I do not see security displayed on the screen in the prog mode
2. Even if I was, it states that the random times occur within an hour of the programmed time. I have it set to come on at 6:30pm, and the lights have been coming on at random times before 2pm.
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Understood. So the next thing to try is unplugging the MT-14 and wait to see if the light misbehaves again. If it does then we know the MT14 is not the cause and we can concentrate our efforts elsewhere.
Questions:
What kind of bulb is controlled by unit code 8? If it's an older incandescent or halogen bulb perhaps the filament is arching causing the switch to turn on.
Can you try a new light bulb?
Have you tried a different Unit code too?
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Understood. Number 8 controls 14 led bulbs in landscape lighs.
I changed it to code 7 earlier, and they came on as well.
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Understood. Number 8 controls 14 led bulbs in landscape lighs.
I changed it to code 7 earlier, and they came on as well.
OK, since you've changed the house and unit codes for testing I think it's fair to say that the MT14 is not the source of the problem. That takes us to the switch and the load (the LED bulbs). Another controller could be sending spurious codes but since you've changed the codes on the XP3 that's pretty much ruled out too.
Are the LED bulbs powered by a transformer/power supply or wired directly to 120 volts?
Is the XP3 controlling an outlet or hardwired circuit?
If the landscape lights are plugged into an outlet controlled by the XP3, then I'd unplug them and plug in a plain old lamp with an incandescent bulb and observe.
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thanks br
the xps3 is controlling lights in hard-wired lamps directly to 110v.
since i changed the house code to B, they havent come on.
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What was the original House code?
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Did you unplug all your RF equipment and test the MT14 in isolation. Do the same with your RF equipment. Unplug the MT14 and test the RF equipment. Plug in plugged in the transceiver and test on/off with the remote.
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Since he's still having the problem after changing the House and Unit codes on the switch I think it's safe to say it's not a controller issue. Another way to test that is to plug a lamp into an appliance module set to the same house and unit code as the XPS3 and see if both come on or only the XPS3.
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Here’s something for the non technical X10’ user that gives a simple insight into all things X10. You might find it useful https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/smart-home-hacks/0596007221/ch01.html
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Since he's still having the problem after changing the House and Unit codes on the switch I think it's safe to say it's not a controller issue. Another way to test that is to plug a lamp into an appliance module set to the same house and unit code as the XPS3 and see if both come on or only the XPS3.
That’s why I suggested separating the the two systems. Test the timer first PLC, the test the transceiver and remotes separately RF. I wonder if there’s more than one transceiver operating here.
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@petera and @brobin
thanks a lot for all of your help. I will continue with this tomorrow or saturday.
For now, I say good night by sharing that even though I left the code on the xps3 as B7, the lights were on when I came home from the second job. And no one turned them on manually.
Mrs Tery
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Given that you have no controllers set to send signals to B7 I'm convinced that this problem is somehow related to the XPS3 being activated by some activity in the landscape light power supply. These types of transformers can generate all kinds of mischief particularly as they get older. To prove this theory, you could disconnect the landscape lights from the switch and test with a test socket and bulb like this one: https://amzn.to/375zGxW
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Given that you have no controllers set to send signals to B7 I'm convinced that this problem is somehow related to the XPS3 being activated by some activity in the landscape light power supply. These types of transformers can generate all kinds of mischief particularly as they get older. To prove this theory, you could disconnect the landscape lights from the switch and test with a test socket and bulb like this one: https://amzn.to/375zGxW
Thanks br
My landscape lights, however, do not have a transformer. All of them are 110v lamps with led bulbs.
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My guess then is that at least one of them is causing the problem. You could try replacing one bulb with an incandescent bulb and see if that helps and if not, leave the incandescent in place and unscrew all of them. If the incandescent behaves then you know you have a failing LED and then need to figure out which one through process of elimination. How old are the LED bulbs?
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My guess then is that at least one of them is causing the problem. You could try replacing one bulb with an incandescent bulb and see if that helps and if not, leave the incandescent in place and unscrew all of them. If the incandescent behaves then you know you have a failing LED and then need to figure out which one through process of elimination. How old are the LED bulbs?
a few of the bulbs are from the original installation from 3 years ago or so, and others have been replaced as they've failed.
This is bizarre to comprehend Br.
I guess if X10 worked absolutely perfectly ALL THE TIME, it wouldn't be as fun and quirky as it is, wouldn't it??
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I hate to say but my X10 setup works 99% of the time. Once the hardware has been ruled out just look at the controller. Always best to strip your setup down to the bare minimum and test each unit individually and then add back till you find the problem. Unlike others here I’m still 100% X10 and still have great faith in it. My control of X10 is way past what it was originally designed for but like an old friend I can generally always rely on it. Don’t worry we will get you there.
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Well remember that X10 was invented in the 70's - almost 50 years ago! - long before LED lighting was even a concept. How many other 50 year old tech products are still relevant today? I'm anxious to hear how your testing goes. I have a feeling we're zeroing in on a solution.
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Well remember that X10 was invented in the 70's - almost 50 years ago! - long before LED lighting was even a concept. How many other 50 year old tech products are still relevant today? I'm anxious to hear how your testing goes. I have a feeling we're zeroing in on a solution.
Exactly my point. It’s simplicity is it’s strongest point. I exploit it to the limit and it’s still up to any challenge I throw at it. I wouldn’t still be using if it wasn’t. Other contenders have come and gone but old faithful is still with us. Such a pity the manufacturers don’t see it that way. Their loss not mine.
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My small installation is Insteon with a Primary address in all of them. So I can use an HR12A remote to control them at different times.
ISY994i for set times and the HR12A for random times. It is around 99% with X10.
Two things in my favor. JVDE XTB-IIR repeater coupler blasting over 10 Volt X10 signals all over the home and a WGL V572A all X10 codes receiver into the XTB-IIRs TW523 emulation jack. Lowest X10 signal with a XTBM in my home is around 1.25 Volts of X10 signal.
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Well remember that X10 was invented in the 70's - almost 50 years ago! - long before LED lighting was even a concept. How many other 50 year old tech products are still relevant today? I'm anxious to hear how your testing goes. I have a feeling we're zeroing in on a solution.
Good morning..
That is a valid point BR. It's still pretty robust and going strong. And the geek in all of us thrives on the troubleshooting steps that it takes to figure out an issue.
This morning's update:
I confirmed that the xps3 is set to house code B and 7. My wife mentioned that they were on when she came down this morning after I manually turned them off last night. An hour or so later, I saw them come back on again, but a visit from the Dish technician distracted me from my x10 duties.
I have unplugged the rr501, and since then, they have not come on. In light of the behavior that I've seen, I think that I might have to do the bulb by bulb approach that Peter Cetera suggested. Maybe one of those LED bulbs is causing some sort of something.
Or
I can switch it back to A8, and set my lamp module also to A8 to see if both come on, as was suggested previously. And maybe this will tell us something we don't know.
Ain't this fun??
But, I continue to truly appreciate everyone's help.
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The most frustrating part of troubleshooting this is that you have to sit around and wait to see if it happens again having no idea how long it should take to 'prove' a test!
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The most frustrating part of troubleshooting this is that you have to sit around and wait to see if it happens again having no idea how long it should take to 'prove' a test!
precisely.
my home office consists of me sitting at the dining table with my back to the patio. Every X seconds, I have to lean forward , and look behind my right side to see if the little mushroom lights under the tree are on. The other lights point up, so I can't tell if they're on.
My left abs are rock solid!!
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The most frustrating part of troubleshooting this is that you have to sit around and wait to see if it happens again having no idea how long it should take to 'prove' a test!
precisely.
my home office consists of me sitting at the dining table with my back to the patio. Every X seconds, I have to lean forward , and look behind my right side to see if the little mushroom lights under the tree are on. The other lights point up, so I can't tell if they're on.
My left abs are rock solid!!
You need a rear view mirror on your table! :'
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You need a rear view mirror on your table! :'
you're very @ss tute BR. Clever indeed.
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You need a rear view mirror on your table! :'
you're very @ss tute BR. Clever indeed.
Hopefully no one's around when @ss tutes! rofl
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Hopefully no one's around when @ss tutes! rofl
again, clever indeed.
The taunting by the xps3 continues. With the rr501 unplugged they lit. With it plugged, they lit.
It's as though, the xps3 has it for me. Or, quite possibly, there is a line of ants inside of it that are making a neutrally voltaic connection.
Or a lizard has been pushing that switch lid to spite me for some reason.
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As I mentioned last night, I am firmly convinced that this has nothing to do with any of your controllers but is a bad bulb or bulbs messing with your XPS3 and your head. B:( Start by replacing just one bulb with an incandescent and if that doesn't work take them all out and add back one at a time.
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@Brian H gave me a good idea to remove the lights from the switch so as to confirm if the bulbs are causing issues or the switch. Before messing with the 15 bulbs, I will explore this approach of removing the wires that feed the light fixtures.
I will remove both black load wires to the 2 light feeds, and I should probably remove the whites as well, correct? So as to completely isolate the 2 fixture circuits.
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Just the black wires will be fine. Let us know what you find.
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Well, there is my pesky xps3 without line wires.
My abs get to take a break from having to look for the lights being on. But now I'll have to walk over to said xps3 to see if the red light is on.
I did not see the lizard that I suspected all along...
I tried to attach a picture, but it's too big.
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A good way to post large pictures is to go to tinyupload.com and post them there then copy the link and post it here. It's a free service that let's you post files and pix.
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A good way to post large pictures is to go to tinyupload.com and post them there then copy the link and post it here. It's a free service that let's you post files and pix.
thanks for the tip BR
Two hours since the disconnect, Roxanne hasn't put on the red light. Of the xps3.
Stay tuned.
Also tune in to the Mars Perseverance landing later on today. Or not.
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damn it, damn it.
Roxanne put on the red light, even though I told her that those days are over, and that she doesn't have to sell her body to the night...
TRANSLATION: the xps3 came on, and I'm not sure who or what else to blame.
1. The 27 new solar panels? Doubtful since the light woes began before the system was installed or wired.
2. A rogue lizard or ant? Perhaps.
3. The circuitry feeding that xps3? It is a circuit of 5 or 6 gfci (i think) and normal outlets in the gazebo that don't have anything plugged into them.
4. A rogue lizard or ant? Perhaps
5. The XPS3 is just....acting out? Perhaps.
I don't have another xps3 to test out, so I can either:
1. Get another xps3 and hope.
2. Add a photovoltaic sensor and call it a day. However, I don't want the lights to stay on all night, so I prefer to have control.
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Do you have any other modules, either lamp or appliance that you can set to the same code and observe?
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Do you have any other modules, either lamp or appliance that you can set to the same code and observe?
surely. I have a lamp module that I can plug in near me tomorrow and listen; I'll set it to code 8 like the xps3
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Yes, set it to the same code and plug a lamp into it and see if it behaves the same. If yes, something is sending a signal - if no, maybe a bad XPS3.
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Yes, set it to the same code and plug a lamp into it and see if it behaves the same. If yes, something is sending a signal - if no, maybe a bad XPS3.
an AM466 is plugged in right next to me, and I'm ready to hear it click
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You might want to plug a light or something in there in case you miss it.
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You might want to plug a light or something in there in case you miss it.
true, but it makes a REAAAALLLY loud lick noise. And I have it 3.6892 feet away
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What if you have to leave to grab a beer... or get rid of one? rofl >!
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What if you have to leave to grab a beer... or get rid of one? rofl >!
i'll wear one of those goofy hard hats that houses 2 cans and has hoses. Or, I will remain sober until I dominate this xps3. I shall do it.
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Hello guys
I reconnected the wires yesterday, and the lights remained off till 3pm,and I was ready to declare a victory. However, they came on at 3 and then again later, so the problem continues.
I think that it's time to declare that xps3 incompetent, even though he did work fine for some time.
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Can we assume that the Appliance module remained off when the lights came on?
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Can we assume that the Appliance module remained off when the lights came on?
Yes indeed. Nothing is transmitting On code 7 during the day
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Can we assume that the Appliance module remained off when the lights came on?
Yes indeed. Nothing is transmitting On code 7 during the day
Time for a new one. I'm sending you a PM.
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a good Wednesday to all
I bring us all to the final chapter titled, Closure.
The rebellious xps3 was replaced by a 6291 (thank you Bruce), and in the last 24 hours, he has been very obedient.
I no longer get to do 55 abs a day, to the right side, to check for the lights being on.
What's the destiny of that rogue xps3?? I'd like to install it elsewhere to see if the rebelliousness will continue. Or maybe I will just leave it as it is, and store it for future use with the question unanswered. Maybe everything in our lives doesn't have to be perfect.
I thank you all for your help with this because it truly has been funstrating figuring it out.
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What's the destiny of that rogue xps3??
I haven't been following this entire thread, but perhaps you can take some solace in the fact that I also had an XPS3 which, after a long and useful life, suddenly turned guerrilla with strange, but reproducible, response characteristics (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=28949). I never made logical sense of my findings, but replacing it with something else solved it, as it did for you.
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If it was the XPS3 from me.
It was new but very old stock.
Knowing X10WTI's QC standards back then. It is possible it was strange in the box or the power supply capacitors dried out due to age.
Glad a substitution of the questionable module. Seems to have found the problem.
My search has found the 6291 has from the sales information "Protection: Intellisense Technology."
I believe that is AGC and the XPS3 does not have AGC. That could also play into why it worked and the XPS3 did not.
If you didn't get the modules sales information. File attached.
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If it was the XPS3 from me.
It was new but very old stock.
Indeed it was sir, and I understand. I recall reading that the newer xps4's have that AGC feature.
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It is possible the power line signal to the modules location. Is not ideal.
If it is not ideal and has some line noise. AGC maybe helping.
Noise has been known to do strange things with X10 modules.
The XPS4 has AGC as pointed out in the X10Pro area of the X10 sales site.
It also has a more silent style relay. So you don't hear its clunk across the house.
Though some found the clunk an indication the switch changed its status helpful.
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I think the the XPS4 is the rebranded Leviton 6291 which was actually made by X10 for Leviton for its DHC (Decora Home Control) premium X10 brand. The DHC line had to be more reliable since it was being marketed to electricians through electrical supply companies and no installer will tolerate a product that generates a lot of callbacks. The DHC line expanded to include their 'Red' and 'Green' lines with scene control and "no code wheel" programming. When I outfitted my first home in Los Angeles with X10 stuff from DAK I ran into all the usual issues with X10 with no idea how to solve them - and no internet to find answers! I don't remember how I found them but I ended up visiting Dyer's Electric in the San Fernando Valley (about 20 minutes away from me in 1984 LA traffic = 1+ hours today). There I met Jim Wilson, their DHC/X10 guru who gave me a ton of documentation, which I still have, from both X10 and Leviton. The DHC stuff was too expensive for me then so I only bought the Leviton X10 signal test kit and what is now called the XPNR Noise Reducer which solved my problems at the time. I still have those too! ;D
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[...]no internet to find answers[...]
[...]I ended up visiting Dyer's Electric in the San Fernando Valley[...]
[...]There I met Jim Wilson, their DHC/X10 guru who gave me a ton of documentation[...]
I love old stories about how we used to accomplish the same things before the advent of instant access to knowledge and commerce. I can recall such goose chases, spending hours crawling phone books, asking questions, and writing down new phone numbers, and the long trips using *gasp* paper maps to look at items in person. Though I developed those skills and can still explain to the whippersnappers what the "disconnected" life was like, I may be of the last generation that will be able to impart that experience. I was also able to see the growth of BBSes, the golden age of commercial online services, and the birth of the commercial Internet as a teenager, which itself was already a toddler by the time I became an adult. So you could say that I grew up in both worlds.
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...I was also able to see the growth of BBSes, the golden age of commercial online services, and the birth of the commercial Internet as a teenager, which itself was already a toddler by the time I became an adult. So you could say that I grew up in both worlds.
I remember the BBS's accessed by "blazing fast" 9600 baud dial-up modems. In fact, I became a member of GEnie, General Electric's answer to Compuserve. There was actually an X10 forum there that started around 1986 and I became the moderator of that form and received free time and a small check monthly based on forum traffic. No graphics back then just monochrome text on a CRT. My grandkids can't imagine life before the internet just as I couldn't imagine life before TV, my parents life before radio and my grandparents life before electricity! Times have certainly changed. Imagine what the next generation will think of today!