X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: madbrain on November 26, 2021, 08:05:43 PM
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My house has a number of devices that use powerline for communication. Not just X10, but also 40 Enphase solar micro-inverters. There are a few TP-Link powerline ethernet AV1200 adapters to hookup devices that don't support Wifi, also, such as my first generation Enphase Envoy, a Rainforest Eagle, a Canon Pro100 that prints too slowly over Wifi, and many Chromecasts audio that I don't want to use Wifi for and pollute the radio waves.
Not to speak of the 230+ LEDs that are hardwired.
Anyway, I have frequent powerline communication errors on my solar micro-inverters. Someone suggested to use ferrite clip-on RFI EMI nose suppressors such as these :
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dreamtop-10X-Clip-on-Ferrite-Ring-Core-RFI-EMI-Noise-Suppressor-Cable-Clip-11mm-Inner-Diameter-Black/128871631?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101003242&adid=22222222222152792148&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=s&wl2=c&wl3=75316616592750&wl4=pla-4578916220388346&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Online&wl12=128871631_10001022612&wl14=walmart%20ferrite%20noise&veh=sem&msclkid=a05a8f3d14301b04320beea29f54564c&gclid=a05a8f3d14301b04320beea29f54564c&gclsrc=3p.ds
Has anyone used this stuff ? How good is it ? Seems a lot safer than using, say, XPPF plug-in filters that are 5amp only. Or the AF120 15amps. Tons cheaper, also. Those are big, unsightly, and sometimes cause ground issues when loose, which can happen with cats walking around. I'd love to get rid of as many of them as I can. Are these ferrite thingies any good ?
I probably have at least over 100 plugged-in devices in the house. If I also count USB, RCA, speaker, Firewire and various other cables, maybe as many as 1000 cables in the house. Of course, all the cables are of widely varying diameters.
Before I invest in any ferrite filters, I wanted to know people's opinions. Are they effective and help with PLC signals such as X10 ? Are they worth the money ? Is there a particular brand that comes recommended ? Where would I get things that cover heavy gauge wire, like something for an appliance using up to a full 15amp, like countertop ovens, microwaves, etc. Even my PCs with 1200 PSU used heavy gauge cables. So do my many AVRs. Or the many high-wattage plug-in surge protectors that have heavy gauge cables, too.
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I don't know anything about the Enphase Micro Inverters but for X10 the XPPF and AF120 filters are specifically designed to filter 120 kHz signals that interfere with X10 signals. The clip-on filters you're talking about will not be effective in doing that.
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I don't know anything about the Enphase Micro Inverters but for X10 the XPPF and AF120 filters are specifically designed to filter 120 kHz signals that interfere with X10 signals. The clip-on filters you're talking about will not be effective in doing that.
I understand the clip-on filters won't filter specific frequencies used by X10, but would they be of any use for anything at all ?
The Enphase micro-inverters I have use Powerline communication, but i'm not sure of the exact protocol. My guess is that it's some sort of Homeplug AV, but I really don't know for sure. There is no documented way for customers to pair with the micro-inverters over PLC, and access them directly. Only the Enphase Envoy gateway pairs with them over PLC.
The log from the Envoy web interface shows that a few micro-inverters go offline and fail to report their production at times. Sometimes for periods of up to 5 hours. Sometimes just a couple minutes. It seems to be always the same ones. They were both replaced on wednesday. The replacements are both experiencing communication issues as well. At this point, I'm wondering if there is something wrong with the wiring on my roof ...
One solar installer in an Enphase recommended using the ferrite noise suppressor to help with noise issues with the micro-inverters. I figured it was worth asking about X10 here too.
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I understand the clip-on filters won't filter specific frequencies used by X10, but would they be of any use for anything at all ?
For what it's worth, using a TP-Link AV1200 powerline modem, and plugging anything X10 into it, blocks all X10 signals to/from. I think there is some overlap in the frequencies used by X10 and Powerline ethernet.
Now that 15amp X10/Insteon filters are no longer being manufactured in large volumes, using those powerline modes just as plug-in filters might be a decent alternative.
However, the clip-on on filters are orders of magnitude cheaper, if they work. I haven't tried them yet.
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If you need a plugin filter, I'd recommend the Smarthome 5A or 10A units. They are often available on ebay for fairly cheap. FWIW, the 5A and 10A are internally identical except for a fuse. Some of the ones I bought were "broken" which just required replacing the soldered in fuse for $0.50USD and 5 minutes of my time. I haven't tried other brands, but these have worked great for me.
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I think there is some overlap in the frequencies used by X10 and Powerline ethernet.
It has been many years since I researched this but as best I remember there is no overlap. The Powerline ethernet frequencies were considerably higher.
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I understand the clip-on filters won't filter specific frequencies used by X10, but would they be of any use for anything at all ?
Most clamp on ferrite filters are intended for the megahertz frequency range, and are not effective at the X10 frequency. There are clamp-on inductors specifically intended for lower frequencies, but even those lose much of their filtering ability at 100KHz.
Some time ago I investigated making a plug-in filter using the low-frequency ferrite material. It took multiple loops through the ferrite core to achieve performance similar to the XTB-F10/F15. But the core saturates as current increases. So there is a tradeoff between effective filtering versus how much current the filter can handle. Because of that I abandoned the project.
Jeff
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If you need a plugin filter, I'd recommend the Smarthome 5A or 10A units. They are often available on ebay for fairly cheap. FWIW, the 5A and 10A are internally identical except for a fuse. Some of the ones I bought were "broken" which just required replacing the soldered in fuse for $0.50USD and 5 minutes of my time. I haven't tried other brands, but these have worked great for me.
I have several locations with a lot of devices plugged in, including some higher powered ones like power audio amps. I really need 15 amps plug-in filters for them.
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You'll be very lucky to find a 15 amp plug in filter! Perhaps you could split the loads between 2 power strips and put a 10 amp filter on each of them.
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You'll be very lucky to find a 15 amp plug in filter! Perhaps you could split the loads between 2 power strips and put a 10 amp filter on each of them.
We have had some ground loop audio issues that could only be resolved by putting everything on the same power strip. There is a 24-outlet powerstrip in the master bedroom for that reason. And I think it's full ... Definitely don't want a 10amp filter on that.
My husband has some really powerful amps in the master bedroom that could in theory exceed 10amps. And he has several of them, so even if one doesn't, multiple of them will. He is constantly plugging and unplugging things around. He won't know to keep any one circuit within 10 amp limit. I really need the 15 amp filters.
I have 5 ACT AF120 15 amp filters in the house, but I'm afraid it's just not enough. I could use the 10amp models in my home theater and office by splitting loads. Still doesn't feel right to put a 1500W UPS into a 10amp filter, and I have 4 of them in the house also.
To be honest, it's a miracle X10 works at all anywhere in the house. I just had a number of outlets throughout the house replaced with surge protector outlets (above-mentioned 24 outlet power strip is just a power tap). My $3K projector on the ceiling outlet was not surge protected also. Now my powerline ethernet signal has significantly weakened. A remote printer in my guest bedroom can't connect via Ethernet anymore. Sigh.
TLDR, I really need a few more 15 amp filters.
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Use some XPF20 filters. Put one in a 6x6x4 PVC junction box and drill a 3/8" hole in two sides of the box. Cut the ends off a heavy duty extension cord and run them into the holes. Wire the plug end to the Black & White wires and the and outlet end to the Red & White wires of the filter and you're in business. Amazon has the XPF 20 for $30 delivered. Home Depot has the 6x6x4 boxes.
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Use some XPF20 filters. Put one in a 6x6x4 PVC junction box and drill a 3/8" hole in two sides of the box. Cut the ends off a heavy duty extension cord and run them into the holes. Wire the plug end to the Black & White wires and the and outlet end to the Red & White wires of the filter and you're in business. Amazon has the XPF 20 for $30 delivered. Home Depot has the 6x6x4 boxes.
I'm not handy and I can't do this myself. The labor rate to install the box, wire it, drywall, paint, texture, would be very high. I still have some leftover electrical work in a few places that hasn't been patched up due to cost. I'm not looking to have more holes in my walls. I need plug-in filters.
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Sorry I wasn't more clear - this IS a plug-in filter. Since there are no more 15 amp filters being made or even coming up on ebay, this is a way to "roll your own" even if you're not handy. The box I'm talking about wouldn't go in a wall or require an electrician or drywall, etc. It would just be a box that would plug into an outlet. The power strip would plug into the outlet coming from the box and the cord from the box plugs into the wall outlet. This is something that requires no electrical know-how and very little effort. If you're interested in giving it a go I'll be happy to walk you through how to do it. It'll take no more than 15 minutes to make and require nothing more than an inexpensive wire stripper, a drill to make the holes in the box and some twist-on wire nuts.
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I have several locations with a lot of devices plugged in, including some higher powered ones like power audio amps. I really need 15 amps plug-in filters for them.
I decided similarly for my office as I was expecting to have 2-3 systems running at a time potentially. I didn't expect to exceed 10A, but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't be an issue. I was not able to locate a 15A filter of any kind, so I decided my best option was to build something. I ended up using a 20A XPF X10 filter which is designed to be wired in. I used a 2-gang box and put 2 duplex receptacles with a long extension cord to create my own device. 2 outlets are filtered, the other 2 are not in case I needed it. My desk is an "L" shape and has a solid back which blocks the outlets so I used this as both an extension cord, a filter, and a power strip. I like it overall but if I were to do it again I'd use a more robust box. The one I found at the time was plastic and flexes a little so it's not usable by mechanics for sure!
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I was not able to locate a 15A filter of any kind, so I decided my best option was to build something.
The schematic for the XTB-F10 and XTB-F15 is on-line if you want to roll your own:
http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-f10_schematic_v10.pdf
All other documentation is online too: https://jvde.us/documentation/
Jeff
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Sorry I wasn't more clear - this IS a plug-in filter. Since there are no more 15 amp filters being made or even coming up on ebay, this is a way to "roll your own" even if you're not handy. The box I'm talking about wouldn't go in a wall or require an electrician or drywall, etc. It would just be a box that would plug into an outlet. The power strip would plug into the outlet coming from the box and the cord from the box plugs into the wall outlet. This is something that requires no electrical know-how and very little effort. If you're interested in giving it a go I'll be happy to walk you through how to do it. It'll take no more than 15 minutes to make and require nothing more than an inexpensive wire stripper, a drill to make the holes in the box and some twist-on wire nuts.
Thanks. In that case, yes, I would be interested. I do have all the tools you mention. I'll just need to buy wire nuts.
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Here's a simple diagram of what you need to do and a list of parts from Amazon.
1. Zulkit Waterproof Plastic Project Box ABS IP65 Electrical Junction box Enclosure Black 7.87 x 4.72 x 2.95 inch (200 x 120 x 75mm)
https://tinyurl.com/yuduvchf
2. 15 amp rated 3' extension cord. https://tinyurl.com/4jm8whjj
3. X10 XPF https://tinyurl.com/4ru4fnn6
4. Wire Nuts. https://tinyurl.com/334tvp3h
Cut the extension cord in half.
Drill a hole in each end of the box just big enough to insert the cut end of the cord.
Insert the ends of the cords into the holes and remove 6" of the outer jackets.
Strip about 3/4" from each of the wires and connect with wire nuts per the diagram. Use a red wire nut for the 3 white wires and yellow ones for the other connections.
Use zip ties to secure the cords so they can't be pulled out.
Put the top on the case and you're DONE!
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Here's a simple diagram of what you need to do and a list of parts from Amazon.
1. Zulkit Waterproof Plastic Project Box ABS IP65 Electrical Junction box Enclosure Black 7.87 x 4.72 x 2.95 inch (200 x 120 x 75mm)
https://tinyurl.com/yuduvchf
2. 15 amp rated 3' extension cord. https://tinyurl.com/4jm8whjj
3. X10 XPF https://tinyurl.com/4ru4fnn6
4. Wire Nuts. https://tinyurl.com/334tvp3h
Cut the extension cord in half.
Drill a hole in each end of the box just big enough to insert the cut end of the cord.
Insert the ends of the cords into the holes and remove 6" of the outer jackets.
Strip about 3/4" from each of the wires and connect with wire nuts per the diagram. Use a red wire nut for the 3 white wires and yellow ones for the other connections.
Use zip ties to secure the cords so they can't be pulled out.
Put the top on the case and you're DONE!
Thanks. This is helpful. I'm going to think about it. I fear I'm not very skilled with a drill, and I'll end up with a device with loose cables. Also, you didn't mention how to fix the XPF within the box. Won't it be loose inside also ? What would you use ? Double-sided tape ? Glue ?
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Double sided tape or Velcro strips would hold it in place or just leave it loose.
Here's a box that has the holes for the wires built in, provides strain relief so they won't pull out and the top just snaps on. I use them outside for X10 modules. It's a little bigger and a few dollars more but it eliminates the need to drill holes. Available in Black or Green.
https://amzn.to/34fSpZ2
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Hot glue works great for securing electronics. For the extension cord, consider tying a knot in it that fits just inside the drilled hole. You could probably also hot glue that knot to the box where it passes through to make it extra secure. Depending on the type of plastic it can help to rough up the surface first with some sand paper so the glue has something to bite on. There are more professional options that utilize a bushing of some kind, but I've seen a knot used in many consumer devices because it's cheap and works.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/77516/securing-electrical-cables-to-holes-in-enclosures
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Double sided tape or Velcro strips would hold it in place or just leave it loose.
Here's a box that has the holes for the wires built in, provides strain relief so they won't pull out and the top just snaps on. I use them outside for X10 modules. It's a little bigger and a few dollars more but it eliminates the need to drill holes. Available in Black or Green.
https://amzn.to/34fSpZ2
Thank you. That looks better, though it does bring the cost of the filter up. I'm still wondering if there is a ready made option out there. Even though the powerline ethernet frequencies don't overlap with X10, the powerline ethernet modems offered filtered outlets. Those outlets don't let any X10 signals through. So, I'm thinking those modems may be usable just as filters, even if I leave the ethernet cable unplugged. I happen to have a couple of extra modules, one TP-Link TL-PA8010 and one TL-8030. I'll try swapping my ACT120 with those in my home theater and see if they work as well. Without those ACT120, I can't control my lights there - X10 signals don't go through.
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There are no commercially available 15 amp X10 filters being made by anybody anymore. >*<
You now have all the info you need to make your own for about $60 or less if you need one.
Do let us know if the powerline modems do the job!
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There are no commercially available 15 amp X10 filters being made by anybody anymore.
If anybody wants to make more of the XTB-F10/F15, contact me for the Gerber files. (The PCBs were made with 4 ounce copper due to the current.)
Jeff
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There are no commercially available 15 amp X10 filters being made by anybody anymore. >*<
You now have all the info you need to make your own for about $60 or less if you need one.
Do let us know if the powerline modems do the job!
They do appear to do the job of filtering X10 signal in my home theater. And not much else, I might add. Since I added surge protector outlets, they don't connect to the powerline network anymore from those outlets. Which is OK since I have ethernet in that room. Main concern now is the power consumption. They are listed as consuming 6W typically, and 0.5W in power savings mode. I have to see if it'll go into power savings mode when not connected to the PL network. Guess it's time to pull a kill-a-watt.
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6W is like a nightlight so you're not likely to notice a difference in your electric bill.
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The average cost of electricity in the US is 10.42 cents/kWh so if you were to use a 6W device for 24 hours a day for the full year, that would be $5.48 per year. I'm not one to waste resources for no reason, but if this is a device that helps in some way, I personally wouldn't stress too much about it. Your X10 devices all use ~3W each.
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The average cost of electricity in the US is 10.42 cents/kWh so if you were to use a 6W device for 24 hours a day for the full year, that would be $5.48 per year.
With everything "off" (breakers on, but nothing actually turned on), our base load was almost 100W. That is consumed by X10 modules and many electronic devices and appliances in standby mode. I went around pulling plugs on TVs and other devices that are rarely used to cut our base load by about a third. But that saved less than a dime a day.
Jeff
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I forget the name that was used when Energy Star was launched to describe all of the little wasted energy each device would use when not in use but turned on. After 1992 though, the load of almost all devices when in standby went from significant to almost nothing. In early computers, people would use a power strip right at the system to turn off monitors, printers, etc when you shut down the machine because the load when turned off was pretty significant. I can't find numbers with my quick search, but an LCD uses almost nothing when turned on but in idle. Very old CRT were apparently still energized to some degree as they still drew over 100W. I used my Kill-A-Watt when I got it to test different appliances and found that my 42" Plasma TV draws ~400W whereas my 36" Trinitron drew ~600W. I believe modern similar sized LCD would be more like 150-200W. When turned off, none of these really drew anything that I can remember being significant (noise basically). Love or hate the EPA, but Energy Star certainly made a difference!
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6W is like a nightlight so you're not likely to notice a difference in your electric bill.
6W constantly on is 52.56 kWh annually. My marginal cost of electricity is close to 30 cents/kWh. So, that's about $15/year. Not a lot, but not nothing, especially if I'm going to have a bunch of filters throughout the house. Even small things add up.
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I forget the name that was used when Energy Star was launched to describe all of the little wasted energy each device would use when not in use but turned on. After 1992 though, the load of almost all devices when in standby went from significant to almost nothing. In early computers, people would use a power strip right at the system to turn off monitors, printers, etc when you shut down the machine because the load when turned off was pretty significant. I can't find numbers with my quick search, but an LCD uses almost nothing when turned on but in idle. Very old CRT were apparently still energized to some degree as they still drew over 100W. I used my Kill-A-Watt when I got it to test different appliances and found that my 42" Plasma TV draws ~400W whereas my 36" Trinitron drew ~600W. I believe modern similar sized LCD would be more like 150-200W. When turned off, none of these really drew anything that I can remember being significant (noise basically). Love or hate the EPA, but Energy Star certainly made a difference!
It's called vampire power. And yes, the EPA made a huge difference. My computers and monitors go to suspend mode when not in use. They still use very significant amounts of electricity when in use.
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Your X10 devices all use ~3W each.
Where did you get that 3W figure ? My P4460 kill-a-watt is unable to measure any load on a plug-in module (X10 pro, PAM02). Shows 0.0amp, 0.0W. Hard to believe it's off by as much as 3W.
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Your X10 devices all use ~3W each.
Where did you get that 3W figure ? My P4460 kill-a-watt is unable to measure any load on a plug-in module (X10 pro, PAM02). Shows 0.0amp, 0.0W. Hard to believe it's off by as much as 3W.
I measured several X10 devices when idle several years ago. The results are at the bottom of this web page...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html)
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Your X10 devices all use ~3W each.
Where did you get that 3W figure ? My P4460 kill-a-watt is unable to measure any load on a plug-in module (X10 pro, PAM02). Shows 0.0amp, 0.0W. Hard to believe it's off by as much as 3W.
In a home with over 100 plugged in devices, over 1000 cables in place, multiple PC's, several high power amps and 230+ LED's you apparently live in a generously sized home with substantial power consumption. It seems that worrying about the power consumption of X10 modules is chasing pennies that would have negligible impact on the total. Why would you even be concerned about it?
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In a home with over 100 plugged in devices, over 1000 cables in place, multiple PC's, several high power amps and 230+ LED's you apparently live in a generously sized home with substantial power consumption. It seems that worrying about the power consumption of X10 modules is chasing pennies that would have negligible impact on the total. Why would you even be concerned about it?
Yes, I do live in a mansion. I'm also not working at this moment, unfortunately, so I'm watching expenses. The PG&E electricity rates are rising very substantially, especially for solar PV users such as myself. One reason I want to use X10 modules is to turn off as many things as possible when not in use, ie. save power, without having to physically go to each device or power strip to turn them off. That includes things that use a lot of power, including audio amps, but also things that use little, like the porch light. If the combination of X10 modules and filters ends up adding a lot to base load, then it may be counterproductive to my goals.
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I measured several X10 devices when idle several years ago. The results are at the bottom of this web page...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html)
Thank you very much ! Looks like most of the devices use 1W or less. Only a dimmer switch you mentioned used 2.5W in the 0% position. I don't use any X10 dimmers, or any other kind of dimmers.
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I have found another source of X10 interference - one of my Juicebox Pro 40 EV chargers.
My Chevy Bolt is on a demand-based utility program with PG&E. This means the utility decides the best time to charge my car at night, when the grid load is lowest. The utility allow can decide how many watts/amps to allocate to charging depending on grid load.. I get compensated a little bit for that privilege (comes to about $80/year).
In practice, the charging usually starts around 2am, and typically the maximum amps that the car allows are used (32 amps).
I have noticed that while the car is charging, PLC signals from the CM11A located in my home office don't reach any distant X10 wall switches or modules located other rooms. As soon as I use the app on my phone or web interface to forcibly stop the EV charging manually, the X10 signals do reach the X10 modules/switches.
The Juicebox is charging at 32 amps / 240V. It's using a plug-in NEMA 14-50 (4 prong dryer plug).
I have two of those as I have two EVs. The other EV is a Chevy Volt which charges at 15 amps / 240V.
Either charger gets used with either car. Each Juicebox is on its own 40amp breaker as 25% upsizing is required for continuous loads. The breakers are off the main 200amp panel, not a subpanel.
Is there any X10 filter that can handle 240 amps / 32 amps continuous current ? Or am I SOL in this case ?
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Do you have an XTB-IIR installed? That would likely improve performance particularly in a mansion.
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Do you have an XTB-IIR installed? That would likely improve performance particularly in a mansion.
No. I do have a Smarthome 4826A 4-prongs phase coupler, though. It is plugged in to a dryer plug in my laundry room upstairs in the back of the house. Probably as far away as possible from where my Pi4/CM11A are located, in my home office downstairs in the front of the house. Nevertheless, I just checked that it is still working. Walked to the laundry room, used HomeGenie to turn a few modules on/off, and saw the lights on it blink. EV wasn't charging at the time, though.
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I have the three pin 4826B coupler repeater.
Just a thought. May not be any issue for you.
On mine I found the Transmit and Receive LED for each phase flashed properly.
A test with my XTBM X10 meter and XTB-IIR off. One phase was not sending anything even though the LED's for that phase flashed like normally.
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Do you have an XTB-IIR installed? That would likely improve performance particularly in a mansion.
No. I do have a Smarthome 4826A 4-prongs phase coupler, though. It is plugged in to a dryer plug in my laundry room upstairs in the back of the house. Probably as far away as possible from where my Pi4/CM11A are located, in my home office downstairs in the front of the house. Nevertheless, I just checked that it is still working. Walked to the laundry room, used HomeGenie to turn a few modules on/off, and saw the lights on it blink. EV wasn't charging at the time, though.
For a home of the size you've mentioned, an XTB-IIR is almost mandatory. Based on your described skill set, you'd want an electrician to install at an electrical panel. The expense for the product and installation will be well worth it as it is far superior to any other X10 repeater/amplifier ever made - and I know because over the years I've tried them all! They are no longer being produced but Jeff reports that he still has a limited number left in stock.
https://jvde.us/xtb-iir/
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Vampire power...that's it! Thanks for the reminder.
As for the power usage, I was quoting what was posted here a few times years ago. I don't have a specific link and it doesn't matter since dhouston's data is clearly more accurate as it covers specific modules. I suspect the post quoting 3W was an estimated high value since it is 2-3x what dhouston measured. I don't have a way to measure such small loads in my overall usage.