X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: jagMan653 on December 10, 2022, 05:06:28 PM
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The common advice for solving problems is to track down noisy devices and insert filters where they connect to wall outlets. In my case the only really noisy device is a PC with a 550W power supply. I've been looking at the filtered power strips made by Furman, often used by musicians.
Any suggestions?
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Check the specification of the modes you are looking at.
Making sure they don't absorb the X10 power line signals as noise on the input connected to your supply outlet.
I looked at one of their models and I got the impression it filtered the AC coming into the strip. You want to absorb the noise trying to go back onto the line.
I have a Smarthome FilterLinc on my computer. 10 Amps so it should not blow its internal fuse on your computer.
Not sure if they are available anymore as they closed and I am not sure the new management. Has started making them yet.
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The common advice for solving problems is to track down noisy devices and insert filters where they connect to wall outlets. In my case the only really noisy device is a PC with a 550W power supply. I've been looking at the filtered power strips made by Furman, often used by musicians.
Any suggestions?
Buy this one on ebay. 10 amp noise filter for X10. Plug it into the wall and plug the PC into it.
http://ebay.to/3W9pZFC
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I highly recommend that unit. If you happen to go over 10A for long enough, it has an internal fuse that will pop. If that happens, you need to open the module and replace. The fuse is soldered rather than socketted, but it's still a simple through-hole type so not difficult. I purchased a number of these years ago including some that were "broken" for cheap. Simple solder/desolder job saved me around $25 each!
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In the early days.
They made two versions.
1626-5 5 Amp and 1626-10 10 Amp.
Only difference in my comparisons was a 5 or 10 amp fuse. With a higher price for the 10 Amp version.
Same board and components just the fuse. ::)
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I can confirm. The broken units i fixed were 5A models. The board was the same model with a 5A fuse. I simply installed the same 10A fuse from the other unit and put in service. All other parts were the same (at that time on my units).
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I think I should clarify how I provide power to my PCs & nearby devices.
I have 2 PCs, my primary running Windows 10 Pro & a backup running Windows 10. The latter is used only to test software I've developed. My keyboard & display are switched to the wanted PC by means a 2-port IOGear DVI/KVM device.
Both PCs are plugged into an APC Pro 700 UPS. The latter is plugged into a wall outlet on the circuit that shows high noise when the Windows 10 machine is on. I haven't checked the noise when the Windows 7 machine is in use.
The APC Pro 700 UPS also supplies a power strip with wall warts for NetGear 608 Ethernet switch, LinkSys router, Wuloo wireless intercom charger, OttLite desk lamp.
A 6-port power strip plugged into another wall outlet on the same circuit has 3 wall-warts for: cordless phone charger, a WD MyCloud external drive, and a PixStar Photo Frame.
I realize wall warts & power strips are natural noise suspects, but are not likely to be what's causing noise error reports since the latter goes away when the Windows PC is turned off.
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All of those devices can cause issues for X10. The UPS and power strip can have a device that helps with noise for devices plugged in. Others that know more have stated that's some kind of a capacitor that smooths out noisy power going into the strip and could cause problems for sensitive electronics. But that also apparently absorbs X10 signal (which would look like noise to the strip) and can reduce the signal strength elsewhere in the home (signal suckers). I don't know the details, but PC power supplies and other charging type devices can be noise generators. So, all of that concentrated at one location can cause a lot of problems locally and throughout the home.
I noticed this in my office which at the time had 2 PC's, 1 laptop, a 1500 UPS, power strip, all-in-one printer, network equipment, etc. As a result, I had no signal on that breaker and it was affecting other things in the house. I wanted to use a filter, but was concerned I might be getting close to 15A peak. The plugin 5A X10 filter was not recommended because exceeding it's rating causes smoke. I considered the 10A SmartLab filter but opted to roll my own solution. I took the guts out of a 20A X10 inline filter and installed it into a 2-gang box and created my own filtered power strip. I have 2 filtered and 2 unfiltered plugs that all of my electronics can connect to. If I redid anything, I'd use a heavier duty box, but otherwise all has worked great for a very long time! That said, if you are clearly under 10A, I'd just use the SmartLab 10A FilterLinc which is a great product and ready to plug in and use.
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@jagman653 - Unplug the UPS from the wall socket and plug it into the filter. Plug the filter into the wall outlet. Done. No more noise on the line!
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I would also say the UPS into the FilterLinc.
The AC conditioning on the input can also absorb X10 and Insteon power line signals.
Side note.
Have you tried the electronics when on battery?
Most new computers have a power factor correction circuit in them.
If your UPS is not a pure sine wave. Some computers shut down thinking their is a overload.
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@jagman653 - Unplug the UPS from the wall socket and plug it into the filter. Plug the filter into the wall outlet. Done. No more noise on the line!
Right on, @brobin!
It's now showing no noise on that circuit. Many thanks. Now, I'll see if everything is working. As you may recall, the PalmPad was able to control our lamps with LED bulbs (through appliance modules), but schedules weren't working. Might have to reprogram using Active Home Pro.
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Glad to hear the noise issue is solved.
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Nice to see the FilterLinc was a suggest.
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Nice to see the FilterLinc was a suggest.
Indeed it was, @brian H. I hope the outfit springs back to life!
Many thanks.
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As I said the FilterLinc is filtering the noise from my desktop and the PalmPad HR12A controls the lamps on/off, but lamps don't respond go on/off according to the schedules programmed into the CM15A.
To determine why, I moved the CM15A from it's usual laundry room location to my computer room, plugging it into the pass-through outlet of the FilterLinc. I was disappointed to find the PalmPad doesn't work with the CM15A so relocated. I assume that's because the RF transmitted by the CM15A doesn't make it through the several plaster/lath walls.
Since I can't move my desktop into the laundry room and don't have the AHP app installed on my laptop, I'll try checking the schedule programming with the CM15A in my computer room (with batteries installed) and then move it to the laundry room to test it.
Am I on the right track?
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The CM15A does not send an X10RF command to modules except the TM751A that is RF only.
It sends a power line command.
Do you have any phase coupling between the two incoming power lines?
For dimmer type modulles thare are two drop down lists.
Before Soft Start and Lamps that are soft start.
Jeff has a great set of tutorials on X10 signaling coupling and noise problems.
https://jvde.us/x10-troubleshooting/
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I would say so. If the unit worked in the laundry room before and doesn't now, and nothing else has changed, refreshing the schedule is the 1st (and hopefully only) step.
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Looks like I misspoke. Let me try again to explain my view of how the CM15A and "control" devices such as the PalmPad and the wall-mounted 3-button devices work together to make lamps etc to turn on or off.
The control devices can't themselves inject anything into the power lines-- the can't because they are not connected to the power lines. Instead they emit an RF signal. That signal must be picked up the antenna on the CM15A. In response to that signal the CM15A injects an X10 command into the power lines.
For this to work, RF has to be able to transmit from the controller to the antenna. I found this from https://www.mistralsolutions.com/:
"Materials such as drywall, plywood, other kinds of wood and glass can be easily penetrated by wireless signals. However, materials such as brick, plaster, cement, metal, stone, and double-glazed glass may cause problems. "
Our home was built in 1969 when "lath & plaster" was used by the builders as a sign of quality. There are two such walls that the RF has to pass through to get from the controller to the antenna when the CMA15A is located my computer room. When it's in the laundry room there are none.
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The lath is a essentially a metal screen that is very effective in blocking RF transmissions! If the CM15A in the laundry room can receive the RF signals from the remotes then you should be OK.
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If you use AHP, you can write the commands you need from your computer onto the CM15A so that you don't need it plugged in to USB. If that works, you can install the CM15A in any receptacle in your home that works the best. Also be careful that the CM15A is installed on the same leg of power as your lights. If it's on the wrong leg and you have nothing running on 220VAC then you would need a repeater or bridge. You can test this by turning on your dryer (assuming it's electric) and trying to control your lights again.
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An update covering the last few days:
Afternoon of 2020 Dec 19:
For testing purposes, I put batteries in a brand new PalmPad.
Power configuration is as recommended by the @robin H and @brobin… my ACP Back-UPS Pro 700 plugged into the "filtered out" of my SmartHome Linc"
Was able to control living room lamp without problems from back bedrooms when the transceiver was located in the computer room. XTMB showed no noise. Short while later discovered the lights were nonresponsive so had to move transceiver to the laundry room for the PalmPad to work.
2022 Dec 22 About 5:45AM
Was able to control lamps from all over house with transceiver to the laundry room.
Was able to control lamps from all over house with transceiver to the computer room.
Opened the AHP App while transceiver was in computer room. Could not turn lamps on/off using the AHP App simulated switches.
2022 Dec 22
It occurred to me that the Timers might be causing the problem, so I decided to all of them. I did so, then used Tools menu to save changes to the transceiver.
Result:
Able to control lamps from all over house with transceiver to the laundry room.
Able to control lamps from all over house with transceiver to the computer room.
I'll leave it that way for a day or two, then setup a timer or two.
Upshot:
I think I'm making progress but still have some work to do.
While doing these tests I've backed off a bit on my previous believe that my problems are due to poor RF transmission. That seems to be contradicted by the seeing the lamps turned on/off with the PalmPad anywhere in the house. This probably will be of no surprise to the Community because of the plethora of problems due to circuit noise.
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Sounds like you're making good progress and are on the right track. Set up a couple of timers and keep us posted.
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Made another effort to make a Timer work, but no joy.
Plugged the CM15A into the pass-through outlet on the SmartHome Linc.
Opened AHP Pro. Deleted all Timers. Created a new Timer to turn the Living Room lamp (which is plugged into an Appliance module). Set it to turn on at 11:15AM, off at 11:30AM. Did not work. Reprogrammed the Timer to new on/off times, downloaded to the CM15A, moved the CM15A to the living room. Didn't work.
What am I missing?
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Ran across this from @petra May 24, 2020:
"Never used AHP before but just a long shot. Assuming your CM15 is not failing, clear the memory of everything in AHP, unplug your CM15 from the USB port and mains, remove the batteries for about ten minutes. Replace the batteries and reconnect your CM15 to the USB port and mains outlet and upload your timers again."
I've been just deleting the timers and didn't know (or forgot!) about the battery removal thing.
Might give it a try...
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The battery ritual is a long standing issue when using AHP and the CM15A. One user added a switch to the side of the CM15A to avoid having to do it. https://forums.x10.com/index.php?action=post;quote=32045;topic=4345.0;last_msg=165962
If your CM15A is conected to a PC 24/7 or not moved the Batteries aren't needed.
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I received an email with the following post but it's not showing up in the thread. I'm posting it here with a reply:
After a holiday break, today I got back to my problem with Timers.
So here's what I did today.
The CM15A is in the computer room.
A SmartHome filter is plugged into the mains and the UPS is plugged into its filtered port.
I have a 5AMP Plugin filter plugged into the mains and a power strip plugged into its filtered port.
An Appliance module is plugged into that power strip.
A desk lamp with incandescent lamp is plugged into the Appliance module.
My brand new Active Home Pro transceiver is plugged into the same power strip.
The tests and results:
Lamp is not controllable with AHP switch icon. (Should it be?)
Lamp is controllable with the PalmPad
I created a Timer set to go on at 3:10PM & off at 3:15PM
Tools|Download to the CM15A
Didn't turn on at 3:10PM so I turned it on with the PalmPad.
Didn't turn off at 3:15PM.
Tester plugged into mains shows X9.96 F 120 N.00 Monitor
Tester plugged into power strip shows X-.-- F -- N.00 Monitor
There must be something I don't understand about Timers
What am I missing?
REPLY:
The power strip should be plugged directly into the mains withOUT the filter. The filter is blocking X10 signals from the CM15A. The transceiver is receiving a signal from the PalmPad and is on the same side of the filter as the module so it works. Without the filter the signal from the CM15A should operate te the module IF the powerstrip doesn't have it's own filter (as many do). For testing just plug the module directly into the wall outlet.
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@brobin, Sorry about the missing post. While doing edit/preview cycle a couple times I hit Post. Then, I saw yet another typo and deleted the message. Of course, that didn't pull back the email!
That aside, from what you said I have more testing to do.
The reason I had the 5AMP Plugin filter plugged into the mains and a power strip plugged into its filtered port was to keep the power strip generated noise out of the mains. I'll try it your way & report back. I will assume that by "For testing just plug the module directly into the wall outlet" you are referring to the Appliance module.
BTW, after learning in this forum that power strips with surge protection are noise sources I tried to find one without surge protection. No luck.
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The surge protector power strips don't usually throw off noise but they can affect X10 signals to modules plugged into them. That's why I suggested plugging the appliance module directly into the wall outlet (mains). With the power strip plugged into the 5a filter you isolated the module from receiving any X10 signals from the powerline! The PalmPad still worked because the transceiver is plugged in to the strip as well.
Here's a link to a power strip with no surge protection or filters: https://amzn.to/3jTaQdG
If you see a power strip with no 'joule' rating it's probably a straight-through one. The good news is that they are usually pretty cheap! Two for 10 bucks delivered in the link.
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Most filtered surge strips have capacitors across the power lines.
They are more like a signal sucker. Absorbing the power line signals as noise.
I modified one I had by removing the capacitors and just left the spike suppressing MOV installed.
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My experience is the same. With low cost strips (effectively just a splitter), there is little change to the X10 signal. With fancier units that claim "lightning protection/insurance" and whatnot, they tend to cause issues as Brian said. It also depends on what is on the power strip. Anything that has a power supply is suspect so in areas where I have multiple items on a power strip, I generally need a filter (as confirmed by XTBM) so I use the FilterLinc.
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I found one problem in my setup. When I assigned my test setup, MyLamp in MyRoom in MyHome (L) I chose L4 to the Appliance module the for my desk lamp, overlooking the fact that I was already using L4 for a power supply for the front yard!
I fixed that and then set about to implement your suggestions. That meant getting rid of my power strip all together and plugging an Appliance module into another nearby wall outlet, and the desk lamp into it. As usual, the PalmPad controls it but the Timer I set up for it doesn't work. The tester shows X7.92 F122K N.00. Not sure if that's acceptable. :(
The possible fly in the ointment is the "nearby wall outlet." I'll have to dig out my house wiring diagrams.
Still can't understand how I got into the mess.
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Sounds like you're getting plenty of signal. Have you tested with a different appliance module? I'm not an AHP user but I think you have to be sure to define the module correctly as a lamp or appliance module.
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7.92 is plenty of signal. Sounds like me with an XTB-IIR. I have ~1.5V in all my outlets and that is with a few known signal suckers.
I have seen .1V of X10 signal is usually all that is needed and 0.05V for select X10 modules with AGC.
If your tester is available to plug in. You should be able to test the signal at the outlet itself.
Just a reminder. There are two lamp module list. Before soft start and soft start.
I believe there is a setting for On or 100% for lamp modules.
Appliance module do not respond to an All Lights On just an All units Off.
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Managed to get back to this issue today.
I now have a new non-surge-protected power strip for the miscellaneous things in my computer room. But just to rule that out completely, all that stuff is disconnected.
The CM15A is plugged into a the unfiltered outlet of FilterLinc plugged into a wall outlet on what I will call House circuit A. My APC UPS is plugged into the filtered outlet of the FilterLinc.
An Appliance Module is plugged into a wall outlet that is on what I will call House Circuit 1. A desk lamp with incandescent lamp is plugged into that Appliance module. A PalmPad properly turns the lamp on and off.
I connected the USB cable from my desktop computer to the CM15A and launched the AHP app. I cleared the interface memory, created a On - Off Timer for the lamp, and downloaded.
Unfortunately, timer does not work. I'm at my wits end B:(
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Try plugging the CM15A directly into the wall outlet without the Filterlinc.
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Try plugging the CM15A directly into the wall outlet without the Filterlinc.
It never hurts to try, but the way the FilterLinc is constructed, the non-filtered plug is directly connected to the mains input. I suppose there could be a fault in that connection but it seems unlikely that would break the signal if there is power making it through.
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Thx, but that's impossible. The only access to that house circuit is a 4-outlet box and when the FilterLinc plugged into one of the 4 there's room for the CM15A. But if I plug the non-surge-protected into the 4-outlet box can I get away with plugging the CM15A into it? I'll give it a try.
Another thought I've been having is maybe the XTB-IIR has failed. Any chance of that?
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Yes you cam plug the CM15A into the unfiltered power strip. The XTBII-R could have failed but that's highly unlikely.
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I moved the power strip to a house circuit close to the XTB-IIR. Very high signal and very low noise. As per usual, the lamp is controlled by the PalmPad but not the Timer.
Now thinking it might be the CM15A, although it's brand new. I still have my old one so I'll clean up the corrosion in the battery holder and see if it works.
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Has the new CM15a ever worked?
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No, the new CM15A has never worked.
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In that case I'd want to see what happens using the old one.
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@brobin
Tried the old CM15A yesterday. It doesn't work at all. When it and the appliance module for the lamp are on the same non-surge-protected power strip the lamp can't even be controlled with a PalmPad.
The old CM15A has been in service for several years while plugged into a wall outlet in the laundry room right above the washer. Needless to say, it had major corrosion. Perhaps when it finally failed it precipitated the problems I've been having.
The new CM15A was purchased from Texas Home Automation in Nov 2022. Yesterday I applied for and was granted a free replacement. It should now be on it's way and I have until Feb 6 to mail the possibly failed unit to TMA.
Hope it works!
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I hope that's the fix. You've tried everything.
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Because several have expressed an interest in the XTB-F10 and F15 filters, I am considering ordering a small batch of PCBs so those handy with a soldering iron can assemble their own. All components are available from Mouser, and the case from Polycase. Let me know if there is any interest.
Jeff
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I'm interested. As you can see in this thread I recently installed a SmartHome device for my computer, but I also have a couple big UPSs where the TV & other home theater components reside. I image 2 5A devices would serve well there.
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You maybe interested in looking at the XTB-F10 and XTB-F15.
To see how they where assembled.
If Jeff decides to get a limited run of the boards you can then get your own parts for.
https://jvde.us/xtb-f10/
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Here are the assembly notes for the XTB-F10: https://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-f10_assembly.htm
We have small quantity of the components available too, but not the case.
Contact me directly to reserve boards and components. I should be placing the order within the next couple of weeks - waiting on a quote for a different factory assembled board that has been on hold almost a year waiting for back ordered voltage regulators.
Jeff
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I received the CM15A replacement. Followed the Owner's Manual Hardware Setup section carefully. Only skipped steps 2, 3, & 4 because I already had the AHP app installed.
The new CM15A works perfectly! The simulated switch in AHP turns my desk lamp on and off, schedules for all lights in the house and yard work, and the 3-button wall mounted switches work.
A remaining question in my mind is whether the returned CM15A was (a) bad from the factory, or was (b) it was OK but had not been set it up correctly. My guess is (a).
However, there is one difference in the way I had carried out the setup instructions: As per the Owner's Manual, I installed the batteries after connecting to the computer & plugging it into the mains. I did not do it that way while setting up previous one (the "bad" one) a few weeks ago.
Other than that I'm ready to draw a line under it, as the Brits say, and move on.
Many thanks to those who have helped me along the way.
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Glad you got it solved!
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I would say (A).
The older through hole 3 board. CM15A didn't have that in the manual. That is if my old memory is right.
It also should run with no batteries installed.
Now that the CM15A is on one board and has surface mounted parts. Things maybe different.