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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nurb432 on February 21, 2023, 07:39:06 PM

Title: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 21, 2023, 07:39:06 PM
In the old days, the x10 powerhouse light modules had a slight voltage leak when off. In the incandescent/fluorescent/etc days no one ever noticed.  I found this out when i switched to LED lights a decade or so ago. Not a huge deal once i figured it out, now i just have fancy nightlights :)

But i have a non-light device that freaks out when it only has a slight voltage and beeps for infinity. It would be nice to be able to switch it on/off remotely. ( and not buy something from a 2nd vendor just for this.. everything else i have is x10,  since the 80s when BSR owned them... )

So 2 questions:

1 - Do the new pro series modules have this same leak?
2 - If so, Is there a way to stop it on new or older modules so that when its off, its really off?
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: guyl on February 21, 2023, 08:48:57 PM
The slight current leak was for powering the module electronics themselves in the "incandescent only" light switches, since they were in series with the load. They needed to be powered so that they could listen to the X10 signals on the powerline.

In appliance and lamp modules, the current leak was used for current draw detection to provide local control (turn the lamp or whatever off and on to signal the module that you want it to turn on). This can be disabled in a few ways. See here:

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Local_Control_for_Lamp_And_Appliance_Modules
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: bkenobi on February 22, 2023, 12:41:21 AM
Any module that uses a relay will work for your needs.  The voltage leak you are referring to are modules that are generally marked "incandescent lights only" and use a triac to control the on/off state.  The down side to relay modules in the past was that they were generally pretty noisy when switched.  I have one in my basement to control the lights on the front of my house and can hear a distinct click when actuated on or off.  There are newer modules that should be quieter based on forum comments I've read.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 22, 2023, 07:06:03 AM
Actually 1 of mine is an appliance module with a relay ( it has the receiver, figured id use it for a light since it was there taking up space ), and it still leaks. However i see in the post above there may be a way to fix those modules.  Going to read that that today.

Any module that uses a relay will work for your needs.  The voltage leak you are referring to are modules that are generally marked "incandescent lights only" and use a triac to control the on/off state.  The down side to relay modules in the past was that they were generally pretty noisy when switched.  I have one in my basement to control the lights on the front of my house and can hear a distinct click when actuated on or off.  There are newer modules that should be quieter based on forum comments I've read.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 22, 2023, 07:08:17 AM
Thank you, i still have a couple of appliance modules in the box ( one is in use, and ya, it leaks ).  Ill give that a read later today.    Googling around didnt find a solution, gotta love google :)

The slight current leak was for powering the module electronics themselves in the "incandescent only" light switches, since they were in series with the load. They needed to be powered so that they could listen to the X10 signals on the powerline.

In appliance and lamp modules, the current leak was used for current draw detection to provide local control (turn the lamp or whatever off and on to signal the module that you want it to turn on). This can be disabled in a few ways. See here:

*snip link as i cant post links yet*
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 22, 2023, 05:46:03 PM
Peeked at those instructions this afternoon and it looks like my relay modules are different model than pictured ( mine are also receivers ), but since they still sell the 'right ones, ill order a couple and tear them apart instead of experimenting on the ones i have.   Thank you.

*snip*

In appliance and lamp modules, the current leak was used for current draw detection to provide local control (turn the lamp or whatever off and on to signal the module that you want it to turn on). This can be disabled in a few ways. See here:

*snip*

Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: AMXoldhack on February 23, 2023, 11:18:09 PM
I also ran across this problem years ago and with the bartana website ( defunct, but stored by others) found out how to add a neutral to incandescent wall switches, enable local dimming, disable the the leakage from from load sensing,(so you could turn a lamp or appliance off then on and have it turn on without a x10 command). newer units now have been redesigned.
the old trick off putting a incandescent night light bulb still works.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 25, 2023, 08:04:18 AM
Well darn, the new versions dont have a jumper.   Guess ill try the nightlight idea.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Brian H on February 25, 2023, 11:25:18 AM
Are the Appliance Modules a plug in type?
The later ones where surface mounted controller and different power supply. They still had a small current to sense am I on or off.
They didn't have the jumper.
If you disable the sensor. The module click on and off trying to determine on or off.

The Lamp Modules with the new controller and power supply. Also had no jumper.
But I found information on disabling the local sensing in a soft start style Lamp Module. I may have information on it if you are using the than module.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 25, 2023, 11:34:38 AM
These are brand new, no jumper ( and broke the case taking one apart :( )  .  Dedicated appliance module. Model AM466 ( which is what the other link talked about ) These are plug, in 3 wire, no radio receiver. ( like my others, they are 2 wire + radio )

I do have a couple of older lamp modules 2 wire.  LM465.

Going to see if local grocery store has any incandescent nightlights left ( bet its only LED around here at this point, which i know wont work )
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: bkenobi on February 25, 2023, 08:04:18 PM
There are always going to be some form of incandescent (well, for a while anyway).  Look for the heavy duty or harsh environment bulbs which may require a hardware store.  The ones that go inside your oven or refrigerator are going to be incandescent for a while.  LED are not suitable for oven environments because they are plastic.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 25, 2023, 08:09:52 PM
Right, and you can find replacements for older sockets, but as i suspected all the new nightlights were LED.

But i have a couple of ideas to try. draining 7 watts wont be that hard.


There are always going to be some form of incandescent (well, for a while anyway).  Look for the heavy duty or harsh environment bulbs which may require a hardware store.  The ones that go inside your oven or refrigerator are going to be incandescent for a while.  LED are not suitable for oven environments because they are plastic.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: brobin on February 25, 2023, 08:16:12 PM


Going to see if local grocery store has any incandescent nightlights left ( bet its only LED around here at this point, which i know wont work )
Amazon still has them:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LK2LC5R/ref=sbl_dpx_lighting-night-lights_B01LWRX5C7_0
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 25, 2023, 08:17:16 PM
i just meant during my shopping trip today.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: gadgetboy on February 27, 2023, 01:15:58 PM
I have had some luck using old 3 volt or higher plug in power supplies (think cell phone chargers) plugged in to the output of the module. This provides enough load to allow the led to stop glowing.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Brian H on February 27, 2023, 06:17:36 PM
I have used some resistors.
Not too easy to safely add them to the circuit sometimes.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on February 27, 2023, 07:41:47 PM
Ya that is on my list if i cant get a lamp that will work out.  Stopped at another store tonight, all LED, so its Amazon or bust i guess

I have used some resistors.
Not too easy to safely add them to the circuit sometimes.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: bkenobi on March 06, 2023, 11:35:20 AM
I use small form factor bulbs under my unheated shop sink to keep the pipes from freezing.  They are incandescent and seem to be available to date albeit more expensive now.  They are the size of a golf ball and have different wattages.  I typically install 2 on a bulb splitter so when one dies I still have the other.  In my case, I use 25W but they also have 40W and perhaps smaller too.  Last I checked, they did have some in the 2-10W range in that specialty bulb section of my Lowes.

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Specialty-light-bulbs-Light-bulbs-Lighting-ceiling-fans/1227965004

Also, many stores sell "high efficiency" incandescent bulbs that have a halogen inside a standard bulb.  They are 75% efficient which is enough to meet the regulations.  The specialty bulbs are not subject to those regulations either which is why they should stick around for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: Nurb432 on March 06, 2023, 11:46:03 AM
turns out im hosed in this case.  What i was doing to drain the current works enough to dim out a LED bulb, but this stupid device on there i wanted to control still sees it and (sad) beeps.  I'm sure an older module where you can cut the jumper would work. But its not end of world, was just to add some convenience to this new device in the house and we dont "need" it.  So not worth me trying to get lucky to find an old module.

For those with suggestions, thanks much.. really.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: bkenobi on March 07, 2023, 12:06:55 AM
Glad you found some resolution even if it's not exactly what you were planning to do.  For closure in case others are looking for a similar small load...  I went by my local Lowes to get some incandescent bulbs for my shop under the sink to keep it from freezing.  I have used a lot of these and may have to change next time since it appears even the specialty bulbs are no longer being stocked like they used to.  Although the SKU is still active, the local Lowes doesn't carry the G16.5 25W bulbs I used to use.  Walmart had them, but I imagine it's only a matter of time.  I do wonder what we are supposed to use in an oven?  I'm pretty sure a plastic bulb might pose a toxic smoke hazard if not fire waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: DocHallie on June 28, 2023, 02:35:42 PM
FWIW- I use the 7-watt incandescent night lights in various colors to let me know when certain X10 controlled devices are on/off. (Water lines, pool pump, garage doors, space heaters in garage for my dogs) They are over the back door I exit to let me know what is on/off before I leave. (realizing this not a true tell-back circuit, it reminds us if something is in a safe state before leaving) I found mine bulbs at 1000bulbs.com.
Some I use to swamp out the leakage current of X10 modules when controlling high impedance devices such as LED lights.
I noticed that my Christmas lights being controlled by newer appliance modules were only dimming when the module went to the off state. The 7-watt bulb in parallel was not enough. I had to use 15-watt bulb.
I have a long vinyl fence on my property line. I ran wire inside the hollow fence and mounted miniature carriage lamps on the hollow posts. Because I used 60-watt LED bulbs, I had to go through an interposing relay controlled by an appliance module.
I just wanted to share this as ideas in dealing with leakage current and high impedance devices in the LED world we live in today and disappearance of incandescent lights.
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: AMXoldhack on December 27, 2023, 02:12:15 AM
I thought I'd reply to this dated post as I have a similar feedback circuit with Xmas bulbs mounted in my living room so I can see what's been left on before I go to bed. some are driven directly by X10 on off commands, some are true feedback from power flash modules coupled to current relays. I'm considering converting all of these indicators to true feedback, though I'm concerned I may run into X10 commend clashes. I'll post my results when I get "round toit".
Title: Re: Voltage leak on X10 light modules ?
Post by: dave w on December 27, 2023, 11:00:49 AM
FWIW
I am still finding incandescent 7 watts at Dollar Tree.