X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bkenobi on January 10, 2024, 07:56:36 PM
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I have a mechanical chime in my house that uses a motor to trigger a 4-8 note tune using 3 "bells". I've had a Ring video doorbell (gen 1 I think) worked fine out of the box but they increased the service cost and I never used the features eventually uninstalling their app entirely when the local news kept showing pictures/videos the local police were using to capture low level crime (vandalism for instance) without the apparent permission of the owners of the cameras they used. I've decided that I'd like to install a different model that has at least some free features with local data (no cloud) and works with the existing chime. I can get some of these but have not found all yet.
I narrowed the choices down and picked the Wyze video doorbell (original) initially as it has a great community (due to other hackable cameras in the lineup) and ability to keep everything local on SD. After a very short time, I realized that although I could get it to work for the most part, it did not ring the existing chime (it has it's own plugin module). I returned that and got the Wyze doorbell v2 which is designed to work with existing chimes via a chime control module. After installing and tinkering for days, I have had it either working correctly, working without the doorbell, or for no reason constantly ringing the bell every few seconds. Wyze tech support has given up and said to return it, but I'm stubborn. rofl
I think the reason the OG Ring worked was that it had a battery in it and could be either wired or wireless. As a result, if the button was pressed and the mechanical chime motor pulled the power down below 16v or used too much of the current (or whatever their threshold is), it would run off battery. Many video doorbells recommend upgrading to a 16v/30va transformer which I found didn't help. The Wyze unit opted for no battery so I've noticed that during some/most testing the unit will reset when the motor is running and playing the tune. I have a suspicion that the camera defaults to push the doorbell button when turned on/reset ungracefully, so I suspect every time it resets it causes another brown out by running the motor again.
I can either go back to searching for another option or I can see if anyone knows how a standard 16VAC doorbell system works and if there are any ways to make one of these work since the MFG has not really done so. So far I've only found high level discussion of how American doorbell systems work so I'm kinda working in the dark here. Thoughts?
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I use a Eufy S330 which ticks all your boxes except for triggering the motorized bells. BUT, since Eufy works with Alexa you could use an Alexa compatible relay to trigger the bells. I do that with the Smartenit Harmony to trigger lights from the doorbell.
Eufy doorbell: https://www.amazon.com/Ewelink-Wireless-Inching-Selflock-Compatible/dp/B0C7QQHMCX/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2Y6HYJI4BSMW6&keywords=alexa%2Brelay&qid=1704936555&sprefix=alexa%2Brelay%2Caps%2C309&sr=8-10&th=1
Alexa Compatible Relay: https://www.amazon.com/Ewelink-Wireless-Inching-Selflock-Compatible/dp/B0C7QQHMCX/ref=sr_1_10?crid=2Y6HYJI4BSMW6&keywords=alexa%2Brelay&qid=1704936555&sprefix=alexa%2Brelay%2Caps%2C309&sr=8-10&th=1
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One of the key requirements i have is that the chime work as it currently does. We don't have reliable enough/fast enough internet to trust any cloud service. I'd consider it as a secondary feature but not as the main capability. I need the doorbell to work as a primary function and the video is more secondary.
I was really hoping to understand how doorbell systems works so I could potentially design something to make one of the existing non-compatible doorbell cameras into one that worked as I need it. That may be asking a lot since i don't know if the mechanism that makes them work. Seems like it's just 16vac that when connected through the button triggers either an electric buzzer or series of solenoid strikes or in my case a motor that fires a series of solenoid strikes. I'm not sure why the cameras can't work with these seemingly simple devices other than mine draws too much current. But, not being an electrical I'm just assuming which is likely wrong.
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Have a look at this Amcrest video doorbell that has a relay output to trigger your existing chimes.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091KMT9GB?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_8EZK8Q3QE22VZ4ZVX7JJ
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Those look promising. The have compatibility with existing chimes listed, can be used without a monthly service and local data, and it looks like they can be used for more than one on a system because they have lots of offerings. I called tech support to confirm it would fit my needs but got mixed results.
They said that their cameras are generally compatible with Nutone. However, they didn't know about the motor (had no clue what I was talking about). They suggested buying one to try and then returning if it didn't work.
The other problem (and bigger really) is when I asked if I could use up to 3 cameras on the same door chime and transformer, he said they are not compatible. I don't know why since I can install a larger transformer to provide more power, but still no.
Since these are strictly wired (no battery), I'm not sure if they would work or not. It might be worth trying one to see since all the other specs look good. Before I do, is there any way to isolate the camera from the chime via a relay of some kind? I'm not clear how that could be accomplished since the camera is powered by the trigger line back to the chime.
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While doing more research, I found a youtube channel detailing how to properly service Nutone chimes. I found it interesting but it didn't answer how I could make a motorized chime work. The channel is run by an old service person for Nutone so he listed his company info and believe it or not was very easy to talk to! He provided several videos that he says will make it possible to set up pretty much any doorbell camera with any chime. I haven't watched them yet, but I believe the answer is I'll need to install a rectifier relay board at the chime. Either way, it sounds like it should be possible to get working after all!
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That's great news! Glad you found the guy. Can you share those videos?
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I'm about to sit down and watch them so can't say how useful they will be yet. That said, here's the links he provided:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6YswmDNVyI&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LXCcLr_HHA&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJZV7k1nlxk&list=PLsTvqKsBnGYdNYGrlrOSVKjOLwvFWrLUx&index=9
He said that the first two are to set up the camera and the doorbell and the last is to link them together (the critical component as I see it). I'm going to spend the next couple hours hopefully learning everything doorbell and cameras and have a solution.
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Interesting videos. Look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'd thought about doing something similar to trigger a device that I used to ring all the phones but, since we have Alexa devices in pretty much every room now, Alexa plays a chime and announces that someone rang the bell. I can also set it to announce when someone approaches the door when the camera sees them. The benefit there is that a delivery guy that leaves something at the door without ringing the bell is also announced.
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Watched those and a few others. In the end, my initial assumption about how these things work was pretty accurate.
Basically, the chime is a 16vac system driven by a transformer. The chime itself (in its simplest form) doesn't do anything until the button is pressed. That shorts the contact from 16vac to the solenoid which causes the "ding". When the button is released, the solenoid releases and swings back the other way hitting the "dong". With a simple mechanical doorbell like this, power is fed at 16vac/10va (typically) directly to the doorbell button so a camera would have no issue using the power provided power to run. The only issue would be when the button is pushed the solenoid could pull too much current and brown out the camera's power so if it has no battery/capacitor to smooth out that 1-2 second button press it might reset.
A more complicated system like one with an intercom doesn't work that way and acts more like a traditional contact/dry switch though it's using 16vac for some reason. The voltage has no available current so it can't run a doorbell camera though it might be able to charge one very slowly should it have a battery. In this case, a separate 16vac transformer is required and the button press must be accomplished via a relay.
In my case, I have a mechanical doorbell (solenoid ding-dong with 3 tones that can play 4 or 8 notes). It also has a rear and side door option which will simply "ding" or "dong" when those are pressed. When I connect my camera up to the side or rear contacts it works fine because it's a effectively a standard mechanical doorbell with a single solenoid. However, when I hook up to the front door, it has a motor with an encoder on the main board. When the button is pressed, the motor spins and the contacts sweep across the different positions causing the 4- or 8-note pattern. The issue seems to be that, much like the intercom style systems, it does not provide enough power to the camera when the motor is running. I can resolve that by using a separate power supply and relay.
However, I am going to see if I can locate a higher power transformer (40va or more) to see if that will provide sufficient current even with the motor running. If not, I'll have to find a way to fit a relay somewhere and probably run wires to the doorbell somehow. If that's the case, I probably won't be using this brand and may opt to go back to the OG Ring unit that worked fine (because it has a battery for wired/wireless usage).
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I heard back from the creator and he pretty much said no to all of my suspicions so who knows. Anyway, his blanket answer is the only reliable way to make video doorbells work is via a relay and a separate power supply. It may work with the existing transformer powering the chime system, but that's not how the chimes are designed to work so it's not ideal. While I agree, installing a new power supply and relay is possible though can be difficult due to where the conductors would need to be (behind drywall and most likely insulated gaps). I'm going to bench test before running any wires and may have to change cameras. I think I have all the parts needed to test so just have to find some time.
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Amazon has lots of 16v40va and even 50va in the plug-in format. The open transformer type seems to max at 30va unless you go to 24v.
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I considered buying one from Amazon because the 16vac/50w and 16vac/100w units I found claimed free returns. I asked the creator of the videos about a higher current transformer and he indicated that had zero chance of working. He knows these chimes inside and out so I'm inclined to believe him. That said, he doesn't know this camera or really any other than the Ring v1 he owns and the Nest Hello which he was loaned. The Wyze Doorbell v2 includes a controller module that connects to the transformer, the doorbell, and the doorbell switch on the board. It basically sits between the terminal and the button and injects power so the doorbell camera always has power. It seems like it should work but for some reason it doesn't. I'm not educated enough to know how to make it work, but at least I can share the info I have so maybe someone else can learn.
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The Eufy camera that I have came with a plug-in chime module that does the typical 8 tone "Big Ben" tones that sounds pretty good. Multiple chime units can be used throughout the house if needed but Alexa handles that part. May be worth trying.
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It appears most of the camera manufacturers have opted to go that route these days. Wyze has at least 3 doorbell cameras now with only the v2 being compatible with existing doorbells. All of their other options include a chime module like the Eufy you mentioned. If I had a contractor special doorbell/chime system, I would just use the module and would have no issues. Since the one I have is pretty fancy looking by doorbell standards and sounds really good, I would rather keep it. My grandparents farm house had a terrible buzzer. If we had one of those I would replace it in a heartbeat!
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Doing what you want using Alexa to operate a relay would be very easy. I know you'd like to avoid a cloud solution but any connection better than dial up would be adequate. When motion is detected or the doorbell button is actually pressed, the doorbell tells Alexa and an Alexa Routine can operate a $10 WiFi relay. Might be worth a try and you can return the relay for free if it doesn't work.
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Connecting to an outside server requires that the connection be reliable and the service active. I am not looking for solutions that go that direction after having several devices become paper weights by the vendors closing down their servers. The connectivity is also a concern due to throttling my provider has gifted us recently. I understand that Alexa is a solution, it's just not a path I am interested in pursuing at this time. I did consider a way to make a wireless relay that was triggered by my local system work but from my experience, triggering from the device itself is the most reliable way to have a permanent solution.
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I did a little more research and the Blink units available from Amazon are sold at my local Lowes. These are advertised as wired/wireless and work with existing chimes. Since I was at the store anyway, I picked one up to try and although it has terrible app support and no real local video (sorta, but not really). After installation, it does trigger the chime correctly from the app and it can trigger from the camera (though it doesn't work every time I push the button for some reason). Either way, it looks like the Ring I replaced was wired/wireless (meaning a battery inside) and the Blink is the same. Maybe I just need to add that to my requirements and I'll be good?
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Apparantly having the battery keeps the camera alive when the current drops from the chime operating. Does it have a slot for an SD card to extend recording time?
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That's my best guess. If the camera has a battery (or a large enough capacitor), if the power goes out or during the ring event when the voltage/current drops, the camera can continue to operate as normal through the backup power source. If the batteries are rechargeable, then the camera would never need to be removed from the wall. I personally prefer either lithium rechargeable batteries or better yet a large capacitor.
The Blink camera has no local storage inside the device. It does have 2 versions on the shelf: 1) camera, 2) camera + local sync adapter. The sync adapter is basically a plugin device that appears to have a plug for a USB device so you can set up storage from the camera(s). I have read that it does work but is very clunky in it's implementation. Also (and more importantly) it does not have RTSP so there is no way to connect the camera to other systems. I plan to use my Synology NAS to provide local storage. It is compatible with many camera types and allows for a generic RTSP if it is not listed (Blink is not listed but does not have RTSP either apparently).
For something that I thought would be simple, the list of requirements seems to be getting longer:
- Wired/wireless power
- Works with existing chimes
- Local storage
- RTSP support
- No subscription requirement
- Supports up to 3 cameras
- Can't cost a fortune (I want 3 so that would add up quickly)
I looked at some other options last night though it is difficult to narrow down with my ridiculous requirement list. It looks like one camera that might work is the Eufy S220. I'll have to do more looking but it appears that it is wired/wireless, local storage, RTSP, no subscription, and on sale for $90USD. They seem to have a large user community so that is a nice bonus. I'll check if they have a discord to ask detailed questions.
https://us.eufy.com/products/e82101w3
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I have the S330 and it's been flawless. It looks like the S220 requires the Homebase which would serve as central storage for all three doors.
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How is the delay with the Eufy? The Wyze was kinda slow compared to the Ring. The Blink was really fast but I didn't like much else about it.
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Another question is, have you been able to use RTSP or is that feature lacking still? I need it in order to link the cameras to my NAS. If it's not available, I'll have to search other ways to get video fed from the HomeBase which would require someone else doing it because I'm not an Android hacker by any means.
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The delay with Eufy is imperceptible - nearly instant. I haven't tried saving video to my NVR as I already had a camera in place that gives me a better field of view of the area. The Eufy also snaps a pic of the person's face and includes it in a separate pic.
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It does all of that locally? It says "local AI" so I'm assuming that's the case. If so, that's pretty impressive. I liked some things about the Wyze camera but in the end it's just not good enough. I already returned a couple cameras so the rest will have to go back later this week. I don't know that the dual camera would be all the useful for me but I'll see if I can find the Eufy S220 locally and pick it up from Amazon (easy and free returns). I think it will work based on what I've found in testing but the proof will be when I get it installed.
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Can you check the menus to see if there is a way to enable RTSP on that camera? If so, it should work great.
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No RTSP but everything is done locally otherwise. If course, it is connected to the web so it appears in the app. The purpose of the lower camera is to show the packages left on the doorstep. You can see in the pic that I have a package box that most drivers use but the ones that are blind or can't read just leave it at the door. I have the 330... not the 220.
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Yup, and that would be great for people who don't have a box. There is a planter right below my doorbell so drivers usually leave packages randomly on either side of the door. I doubt that the lower camera would be very useful so I was thinking S220 instead and save a little. The other locations would never need the lower camera so those would be S220 anyway. I'm just not sure how to link the camera to the Synology without RTSP. They have them in stock at my local BestBuy (S220, S330, and E340) so I'm going to pick up an S220 to see if I can get it to work. I don't know if the Homebase is required to do anything without a subscription and I'd rather not get one for this test if not needed. Perhaps there is a trial subscription that will let me see what I can do without so much to purchase.
If the Eufy doesn't work, I'm not sure where else to go because I haven't found any that fit all the check boxes. The Eufy has claimed RTSP in the past but appears they pulled it from the firmware at some point and it may/may not be available on different models. It is available on the security cameras, just not on the doorbells for some reason.
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The 330 is currently on sale on Amazon for $129.95. I just looked at mine and it has recordings all the way back to early October.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Q2NGQL8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
BestBuy has one on clearance for $51.99 but I don't know much about it.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/eufy-security-smart-wi-fi-video-doorbell-2k-pro-wired-black-white/6425487.p?skuId=6425487
Maybe get a doorbell cam PLUS a webcam with RTSP to mount higher for a more panoramic view. I have one that was less than $100 mounted about 4 ft off to the side of the door that's recorded on my NVR 24/7. Here's a screenshot.
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I considered putting a few cameras around years ago but there's no power run anywhere easy so would be a pain. The one that's on clearance is the S220 I think but it looks out of stock otherwise I'd jump on it. The local Walmart has the same one BB is clearancing for $120. Maybe a manager will allow a price match :'
It's snowing heavy now with ice left from last night so probably wait until weekend to do anything.
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After further review, it appears that the doorbell camera at Walmart is an earlier model that isn't compatible for my needs. Guess I'll trek to BestBuy this weekend and see if they have anything. I could order from Amazon too, just hate doing that all the time for everything.
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I have tried several doorbells and none will work fully. I really liked the Eufy doorbell camera, but it does not support RTSP and as such can't link to my NAS for recording. Amazon does sell a package that includes both the camera and the homebridge that may be an option, but I'd rather not do that since then I'd be locking my videos onto their NVR which appears closed to whatever they allow.
I tried Wyze (2 options) and both do not work with my chime. I tried Blink and it does work well, but has no local storage or streaming and requires a subscription. My original Ring v1 is ok but to do anything really requires a subscription and there is no native stream support (though there may be a hacky way to access one).
I've done a lot of research so far and there are candidates that look promising, but that assumes online reviews are still valid (if mfg turns off a feature, has the review been updated?) and accurate.
At this point, it appears that the options are:
- Reolink PEO doorbell could work if I wanted to go down the hacky route. It would require adding a 433mhz receiver in the doorbell to pick up the transmitted signal from the doorbell.
- EZViz DB1 which has a lot of clones appears to fit all check boxes. It hasn't been tested with motorized mechanical chimes, but having a battery internal suggests it should work fine.
- Amcrest AD410 (or AD110) has been confirmed to work with my NAS and software and has a pair of capacitors internal so it should work with my chime.
- Foscam VD1 looks like a real option...except it has stopped production. Too bad since it ticked all the boxes.
- Upiquiti G4 Pro appears to have all the capabilities anyone could want, but it costs a small fortune ($300 MSRP). I wanted to install 3 so if I had to go this route, I'd probably opt for something simpler/cheaper for the other locations that won't likely be affected by the motorized chime. I'd much prefer common cameras though (at least in brand), so this is not a likely option.
I'm thinking the best option is to get the EZViz, Amcrest, and Foscam (if I can find one) in hand to see which will work best. Don't think they are available locally though.