X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Tuicemen on February 18, 2006, 11:40:46 PM
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Here is a weird one.
I have a motion sensor which I had set to C1 lately it hasn't been triggering my macros. I assumed it was the latest update of AHP causing the problem but after some digging I see it is transmiting now on C4. I've heard of the sensors resetting to their default when the batteries are going dead but I guess by the look of things they can go anywhere! go figure!
I'll replace the batteries tomorrow to see for sure if that was the problem they're over a year old but I wanted to see for sure if it would default to A1 as reported by others.
Now I have another sensor in a box that I wasn't using with batteries in it (not that old) seems it is transmiting on c4 as well but I can't remember what I had set it for as I was just using it for testing. Chaulk up another x10 sensor mystery! :)
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Well looks as if it was the batteries. Added a fresh set on sunday and it has been working right every time since.
Just before I changed the batteries I did notice that it started to send c1 commands again truely strange!
I suspect it depends which code they'er set to as what they flip to on a failing battery. It seems to be A goes to 1-16, B to 2-3, C to 4-5 and so on. Just a thought but this does explain some wierd things useres have posted about.
Perhaps someone from X10 could confirm this.
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Interesting Tuicemen, I always thought that a low battery caused the motion sensor settings to revert to unit code 1 of the programmed house code. I only use HC B for all the motion sensors, so I have a low battery macro built (b1) to send me an email when the batteries need replacing. At least I know that works.
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WinS: I was under the inpression that they all reverted back to A1, :-[ so much for my low battery e-mail macro which I had also made! It will be interesting to see what code yours go to when they start to fail!(thats if you let them) :) ;) ;D It is a good thing I had nothing else on this house code or I'd be another one screaming at X10 :o
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The A1 default makes sense, and I always assumed that was correct. But I had a C8 motion sensor which switched to C1 for no reason and the batteries tested low. Now I'm thinking this matter isn't written in stone. I know when the batteries are removed the settings go to default A1, but maybe weak batteries don't actually switch the sensor to default. There could be an erratic effect on it's memory as the voltage drops. Doesn't bode well for my receiving a low battery email anytime soon!
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Not to confuse matters too much but I have had several motion sensors set to house code f and I can't remember what unit code. Twice when the batteries started to fail they defaulted to A!. The only reason I know this is because a lamp I had set to A1 keep turning on. When I went around and checked the motion sensors I found one that was set to F? was sending A1. I had this happen on two occasions with two differant sensors.
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Humm seems to be no set pattern to what these defaut too. Guess it's best to just change the batteries every time you do your smoke detector!Or at least once a year! :) ;) ;D
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This seems to answer a few of my major concerns with a few of the motion sensors I've been having problems with in the past. At least I thought they were failing and now I see that it wasn't the sensor that was failing, but the battery that was giving out... I had one in my kitchen that would turn on the kitchen light when you walk in and back off when you leave and all of a sudden, instead of the kitchen light being controlled, the dining room light would come on instead which was set to A1 instead of A3. A few of the other motion sensors would trigger incorrectly and I was thinking that they were bad units, now I know to change the batteries more than the unit.
Changing the batteries once a year (or when you change the smoke alarm battery) would be a good idea as Tuicemen said, if you use good batteries that last that long in the first place.
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I am use ActiveHome pro for the last coupe of days and I too had an issue with the motion sensor. It seems as if the A1 and A2 signal get confused at times. I have a lamp module set at A1 and an appliance module at A2. My motion sensor is set to A1. Now what hapens is, whenever motion is detected, my appliance module also starts to trigger ON and OFF, which it is not supposed to, since it is set to A2. Later I swtiched my appliance module to A3 and everything worked fine.
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Could it be that the motion sensor is near the lamp that is being turned on by the lamp module? If it is could it be possible that the light sensing circuit in the motion sensor is being activated by the light from the lamp and therefore sending the unit code plus one?
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JimC That would be my guess as well!
tahirbutt : You would be wise to move your motion sensors to a house code your not using for anything else or better yet leave them on A and set everything else to another code as these things do weird things as the batteries fail and you have to watch the unit code +1 factor! Everything defalts to this house code so if something fails it could throw you whole system into disaray! :'( ;)
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Maybe a test could be done by wiring some kind of in line power switch. Maybe you could try to power one with a "wall wart" interupting the power and seeing what happened. Sorry my motion sensor has gone missing so I can't do it. I'd be interested in seeing how long an interuption is needed to rest the sensor and if there was any constancy in the results. Of course even this might not be a real life test as it might not be realistically to expect a total interupt the voltage. More likely an interuption would happen at some low voltage threshold. I imagine in many outdoor units the voltage drops during cold weather extremes. So if anyone out there has the equipment and is motivated... Otherwise the...
Moral of story: If the sensor operation is critical, replace the batteries regularly before they fail like your smoke detector batteries.
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Hello world
I am having issues with my motion sensors. One is in the kitchen in the pantry, B1, the other is down the hall and roughly 12ft away through several walls in a bedroom closet, B2. Both motion sensors turn on the lights in the respective areas, however when the pantry is triggered and then turns off somehow the closet turns on. There is no possibility that one would be seeing the light of the other and they are brand new batteries and still working the modules they are set to. Any ideas?
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sfrazer
Most X10 motion sensors take up two addresses, one for "I saw motion" and one for "It got dark out" i.e. "dusk sensor".
If the detector is programmed as "B1", then "B1" will be sent for motion detection and "B2" will be sent for "light / dark" detection.
So, always remember to skip an address beween motion detectors. ;)
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sfrazer
Ah the old, unit plus one sensor problem! ::) ;) :D
As Bill stated Don't use back to back addresses for motion sensors![/color] ;) :D ;D
Just a side note: You'll also experience this if one is set to unit 1 the other to 16!
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Sorry so tired I did not see that! I just started installing the sensors..
So that may also solve my other issue too! I have an interior garage light A4 with a motion sensor and an exterior garage light A5, no sensor yet. Everything used to work great than we started noticing that when we left the house and the garage door hit the pavement the exterior light flicks on. And when I come home the garage door goes all the way up then the exterior light flicks on. So first I was thinking that the remotes were causing some interference, but that never happened before...
Thanks a bunch,
Sandra
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Interesting Tuicemen, I always thought that a low battery caused the motion sensor settings to revert to unit code 1 of the programmed house code. I only use HC B for all the motion sensors, so I have a low battery macro built (b1) to send me an email when the batteries need replacing. At least I know that works.
How do you program a macro for low battery check ? I didn't find any flag or setting to check to validate that problem. If you can give me a clue (so I can try to build my own macro), it will be very appreciated.
BTW, is it some other setting(s) or flag(s) related to other sensors (DS10A by example) that can be programmed or checked ?
Gilbert
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How do you program a macro for low battery check ?
Removing and re-installing the (good) batteries in most X10 battery-powered devices RESETS their HouseCode/UnitCode combo to the firmware default of A1. Thus, you can create a Macro to do "something" that will bring this to your attention (i.e. turn ON a certain lamp; speak a certain phrase; send an E-Mail, etc...)
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Thanks guys, your advice worked. I didn't know that the Motion Sensors take up 2 codes. One for its active RF and the other for the Dawn/Dusk RF.
Thanks for helping me out here. No wonder my devices went crazy sometimes.
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Humm seems to be no set pattern to what these defaut too. Guess it's best to just change the batteries every time you do your smoke detector!Or at least once a year! :) ;) ;D
I thought of a simple mod that should prevent false transmissions when the battery runs low. I ordered a couple of samples of the MAX6328UR26 uP Reset Circuit from http://maxim-ic.com. Using the schematic for the MS14A at http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ms14a.htm (http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ms14a.htm) as a reference, make the following connections:
MAX6328UR26 To Signal
Pin 1 PIC12C508, Pin 8
Pin 2 End of R3 that is not connected to Pin 2 of the PIC12C508
Pin 3 PIC12C508, Pin 1
The PIC12C508 datasheet says that it can run reliably down to 2.5V when using the internal 4MHz oscillator. The MAX6328UR26 has an open drain output. This mod will disable the transmitter when the battery voltage is lower than 2.6V. The MAX6328UR26 consumes a maximum of 1uA, so battery life should not be affected.
I plan on implementing the mod as soon as the samples arrive. The design for the MS16A may be basically the same. I'll keep you posted with my results.
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Keep us in the loop with the reset chip. Sounds interesting.
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Humm seems to be no set pattern to what these defaut too. Guess it's best to just change the batteries every time you do your smoke detector!Or at least once a year! :) ;) ;D
I thought of a simple mod that should prevent false transmissions when the battery runs low. I ordered a couple of samples of the MAX6328UR26 uP Reset Circuit from http://maxim-ic.com. Using the schematic for the MS14A at http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ms14a.htm (http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ms14a.htm) as a reference, make the following connections:
MAX6328UR26 To Signal
Pin 1 PIC12C508, Pin 8
Pin 2 End of R3 that is not connected to Pin 2 of the PIC12C508
Pin 3 PIC12C508, Pin 1
The PIC12C508 datasheet says that it can run reliably down to 2.5V when using the internal 4MHz oscillator. The MAX6328UR26 has an open drain output. This mod will disable the transmitter when the battery voltage is lower than 2.6V. The MAX6328UR26 consumes a maximum of 1uA, so battery life should not be affected.
I plan on implementing the mod as soon as the samples arrive. The design for the MS16A may be basically the same. I'll keep you posted with my results.
Here's an update:
I wired the MAX6328UR26 "dead bugged" (chip upside-down) to the solder side of the PCB of a MS14A as described above. It all works as expected. At 2.6V or below, the transmitter is disabled. This will prevent the MS14A from sending out incorrect transmissions when the battery runs low.
Further inspection of the cause of the initial reported problem revealed that the PIC12C508 used in the MS13A and MS14A (and probably the MS16A that I don't have) does not have an internal brown-out-reset circuit as part of the microcontroller circuitry. The MS1XA may reset to A1 on power-up, but that's because a power-on-reset is generated within the microcontroller when the batteries are replaced. Per the PIC12C508 datasheet, correct operation is not guranteed at voltages below 2.5V when configured to use the internal 4MHz oscillator.
This mod will work on the MS13A and MS14A. I think the design of the MS16A is basically the same, so it should work there too. You can get samples of the MAX6328UR26 at the Maxim website, or purchase them through their site at $2.05 each.
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...The PIC12C508 datasheet says that it can run reliably down to 2.5V when using the internal 4MHz oscillator....
This would be another reason not to use NiMH batteries as two cells would only produce 2.4V.
[...I wired the MAX6328UR26 "dead bugged" (chip upside-down) to the solder side of the PCB of a MS14A as described above. It all works as expected. At 2.6V or below, the transmitter is disabled. This will prevent the MS14A from sending out incorrect transmissions when the battery runs low....
My single application isn't critical enough for me to need the mod at this time but I will keep it in mind.
Thanks and I've left you a "helpful".
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...The PIC12C508 datasheet says that it can run reliably down to 2.5V when using the internal 4MHz oscillator....
This would be another reason not to use NiMH batteries as two cells would only produce 2.4V.
Good point.
Another reason not to use rechargeable batteries is that the self-discharge rate of Ni-Cad and Ni-Mh batteries can be as high as 20% per month. So they are not well suited for applications like these where the current draw is very low.
Thanks for the vote.