X10 Community Forum
🛡Home Security => Home Security General => Topic started by: jai on November 07, 2005, 03:14:37 AM
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I have the 230volt version of the PH7208, for
use in New Zealand, can I use the same value
components as stated on the pigs electronics
website to add a relay?
http://www.pigselectronics.com/tektips/tip3.htm
Has anyone actually done this and have a
better write up online with pictures?
I have a 12V DC 1amp external siren with
power adapter that I want to connect to the
relay, will this work? What size relay do I
need?
cheers
Jai
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I will look at my notes on adding the relay.
I started the project, but it is not done
yet. I was trying to find a relay that would
fit the hole pattern on the board.
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Brian....this would be a great modification,
in the same league as Robert's modification
to the Console for an external alarm. Can
you tell us anything about your modding
experience on this project and what
remains? It seems you are looking for the
relay...is the problem its size or ????
Please advise if you have a chance.
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Finding a relay that fits or is close and
the voltage. I did some measurements and
voltage of the relay depends on the coils
current draw. One of the resistors is in
series with the coil to drop the voltage and
it depends on the current it draws. Also
[notes still missing may do again] the power
supply for the relay is from both a + and -
power supply source. Yes to common there is
a + and - voltage supply and the relay uses
both to add together.
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Brian...here is a webpage with a bunch of
relays, their schematics and sizes. Any
help?
http://www.elliecho.com/relay_current.htm
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I will look and see. I think it was more the
pinouts for the relay switch contacts that
where hard to find, but I do have afew I
picked out in stock. May have to add a
jumper from one pin to the hole it belongs
in.
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Jai; The PH508 has a power transformer
running it and I would say yours has a 220
volt one as ours is 120 volts. The relay
part is run from the low voltage suppies and
should be the same. Should work. I still am
trying to find a relay that fits and is
about the correct coil voltage to work.
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RE: Modification to _PH_508_PowerHorn_as
described at ww.pigselectronics.com/tektips/
tip3.htm
OK....I went to Radio Shack and purchased
some parts...had to go to an electronics
store to get others:
Parts #/Price:
RadioShack
(271-1118)Resistor 1K ohm(1/2 Watt)5 for $.99
(276-1102)Diode 200V 1A 2 for $.69
Electronic Store
NTE HW210 Resistor 1K ohm(1/2W) 6 for $.99
NTE QW312 Resistor 12K ohm (1/4W) 4 for $1.09
NTE QW420 Resistor 200K ohm (1/4W) 4for $2.90
Philmore 1N4001 Diode 1 amp 50V 5 for $.99
PN 2222 Switching Transistor 1 for $.25
NTE R70-501-12 SPDT1A-12VDC Relay 1 for $2.90
The relay is a micro relay and is smaller
than the circuit board pinout. I had
previously purchased from Radio Shack the
275-240 5VDC 1AMP SPDT micro relay for the
smoke alarm modification. This relay fits
perfectly on the circuit board and the
pins align exactly. Here is the url for the
relay:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?
productId=2062480&cp=&kw=
5vdc+relay&parentPage=search
Note: I was unable to find solderable
terminals for circuit board under the taped
over area.
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Brian...please correct me if I am wrong:
the end result of this modification will be
a set of terminal screws off of which a
normally closed circuit will open during an
alarm (the activition of the _Powerhorn_)?
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Depends on you relay choice. If you use the
normally closed contacts they will open when
tripped or close if you ud sed the normally
open set. I naver found any contacts to fit
the board either. Will look at the relays.
My Radio Shack just redecorated and I saw NO
part racks in the store anymore. Just
consumer goods like Ipods!
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I've not tried this but would the X10
Powerflash module work for this project ? I
have also an external Radio Shack
siren/strobe which ops on 12 volts,, would
like to hook into the Protector plus system
with it,, to turn it on if the security
system gets tripped.
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Hi Ian...Brian H can answer this best:
nothing from _X10_ or any other related
manufacturer will trip an external alarm--
without modification (such as we are
investigating with the
_PH508_Powerhorn_Siren_ or Robert D's
Console modification. Brian can best
explain why nothing works but it has to do
with the type of codes sent out when an
alarm is tripped. Sorry....we all suffer!
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The 275-240 5V and 275-241 12V both
physically fit the holes but a quick check
seem to show the coil and contact pinouts
don't match the signal traces on the PC
Board. Over weekend will test further.
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Thanks for your ongoing efforts, Brian!
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Still very interested in this modification--
awaiting updates. Thanks.
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Sorry for the delay.
Update.
(1) The Radio Shack relays that fit the hole
pattern do not match the signals on the
pads. So they will not work, but with my
sketches and the hole pattern size printed
on the RS package. We maybe able to find
something.
(2) The relay is feed power through R30 [to
drop the voltage] to +28 volts and the other
side of the relay is connected to the -15
volt supply throgh TR8. Since the total
voltage is around 40 volts. I used a 2N5551
transistor as it has a higher breakdown
voltage than the 2N2222. So R30 may have to
be selected for the relay used.
(3) The board has a few more unused
components in the relay area that the author
of the mod is not using. R31 R36 and C18. I
triggered it with no relay and it seems to
switch fine. Don't know what X10 had used it
for.
(4) Still have not found any solderable
terminals to fit the hole pattern.
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Brian H...Thanks so much for the update. Not
great news about the RS relay pinout (esp.
since I bought five in anticipation.) In
paragraph number 3 you state that the PCB
switched fine without the relay. Does that
mean that even without the relay you have a
normally closed circuit that when energized
by an alarm (series of all lights ON/OFF
from the console to the _PH508 _PowerHorn)
changes to an OPEN with electrical current
passing through? If so, how much current
with the 2N5551? Optimally, we want 12V DC
so that it could actually power an external
siren (I guess wattage will also be an
issue). If in fact the PCB is "switching",
then we don't need the relay. Note, I have
searched the web for solderable ternimal
contacts with the same pinout as the PCB
with no luck. But I would just solder two
say 18 gauge wires to the PCB terminal
contact paths and pierce the tape on the
_Ph508 to place the leads outside the
_PowerHorn. Thereafter, I could just use
wirenuts to connect the external siren.
Once again, thanks for your efforts and,
when you have a moment, if you could respond
to my question, I would appreciate it!
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The switching was just the full power across
the added diode [D16] that normally
supresses the spike the relay coil produces
when energized and deenergized. The internal
supplies in the PH508 will not take the load
needed for the external sirens power. The
transistor is good for 600Ma about .6Amps.
I was toying with patching in Crydom DO061B
SSR module that has about a 1 amp rating on
it's output. Probably will have to repick
R30 to lower the currrent to a lower value
as it doen't need alot of current to switch
it on. Guess we could alo glue a relay to
the board and run fly wires to the holes.
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I saw something very interesting. In my
latest Mouser catalog they have a solid
state device from NEC. It is the size of a 6
pin IC and can control up to 4 amps DC that
is no higher than 60 volts. It uses very low
driver current. I may see if my work place
has a pending order to Mouser and will tray
to get one. If not I may order a few on my
own.
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OK I decided to oreder a few of the NEC/CEL
PS710E-1A-A ICs and will report on what I
find out. Should ship tomorrow and was light
so I am getting then first class mail.
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Good afternoon Brian. Great followup.
Thanks. There is plenty of room in the
bottomm left corner of the board to glue an
RS microrelay and run wires to the RL1
holes. But only you know the pinouts
(hahaha). When you have a moment moving
clockwise from the upper left hand corner of
RL1 drawing, could you please write the
pinouts (i.e. 1st hole for coil, 2nd for
coil, 3rd for COM, 4 for NO, 5th for NC).
That way I could get one of these up and
running. I am most hopeful that the Mouser
solid state IC you encountered would do the
trick of allowing power off of the
_PH508_PowerHorn. But please note that many
security external sirens have leads for the
alarm circuit and separate input for power
(110 or 12V)...so the PIGS mod would work
with those. But an internal to the _PH508
_PowerHorn that would both switch and power
the external siren would be BEAUTIFUL! Once
again, thanks so much for your efforts!!!!
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#1 Left top corner Normally Open contact
#2 Coil
#3 Common for contacts
#4 Coil
#5 Normally Closed Contact Note hole has no
pad to solder to and the relay originally
had the contact pass through the hole.
Also R30 with this realy's 320 Ohm coil will
allow about 10 volts on the coil and if I
made the calculations correctly. Will
overheat as it is about .8 watts on it.
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Brian...thanks for the pinout...It's really
disappointing about the lack of a pad for
the NC pin. Also, I understand that since
we would be using a 1K 0.5 watt resistor for
R30 that a current of 0.8 watts would
overheat that resistor but can't we just
upgrade to a 1K 1.0 watt resistor for R30?
Well, to be honest, although I am trying to
follow the electronics in this equipment, it
is beyond me. I had just hoped that I could
purchase the components and ask a friend
(who works for a manufacting company
soldering on PCBs) to solder it together.
At first I thought I may be able to do the
soldering, but the board and pads are too
small for me and I don't really know how to
avoid heat transference to the diodes, etc.
Fortunately, you have given me some hope
with the NEC/CEL ICs. As I said earlier, I
bought all the parts recommended by PIGS
plus 6 relays in total. But if its an IC
that does it for us then I am onboard with
you! Thanks so much for you work on this
modification.
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You are welcome. Yes the pads on the board
are not too easily cleaned off. As the
boards are wave soldered and all unused
holes are full of solder. I had to use a
solder sucker and a small soldering iron. Do
you need the normally closed signal? Some of
the solid state devices have a NC and an NO
pin.
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Brian H, you're right...most security sirens
offer an NC or NO option. So it looks like
glueing the relay down to the PCB is one way
to get a _PH508 to turn into an external
siren host by using the 12V DC micro relay
and upgrading the R30 resistor to 1K 1.0
watt. If you don't mind though, I would like
to hold off on the soldering until I get
your update on the NEC/CEL ICs. It really is
fantastic that you have fleshed out the idea
offered by the PIGS website into a viable
modification with the missing relay pinouts
and the uncovered safety issue of an
underrated resistor. Now, if the NEC/CEL IC
could also allow the provisioning of DC
power for the siren...well, that would make
the _PH508 a real alarm solution
(interior/remote exterior) and would be a
real accomplishment on your behalf for all
of us X10ers. Thanks!
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Sorry. Just posting to keep this thread
alive.
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Got the ICs now all I need is time to try
one.
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Fantastic Brian H...I know the holidays can
sure eat up free time. Best wishes.
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Any updates regarding if the solid state relay worked???
Or any better mods. I've got an old outdoor siren from my old alarm company and want to integrate into DS7000 system.
Please share as it seems this a great fix.