X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: anthony on January 04, 2006, 09:21:08 AM
-
i have just installedsome of my 1st X10. the
dimmerworks locallymy hand but not on the
remote. i also have a working lamp module so
i know the x10 is working. is it possable my
lights and sockets are not connected together
and is there anything i can do to fix this?
-
Maybe a phase problem. Most homes are split
phase. Half the home on each phase. X10
signals have problems getting to the other
phase. A rough test if you have a 220 volt
appliance like a dryer or stove. Turn it on
and test the bad switches again. If they
work you need a phase coupler. They make
plug in ones for dryer sockets or hard wired
ones for the main breaker box.
-
I have just run across the same situation on all my wall switches. Last month they worked with remote, manually, and with the software. Then, I installed the dryer phase coupler (4826A Coupler - Repeater) last week to fix other issues I had, and now all of a sudden, the dimmers do not work with remote or the software (I have the latest AHP software with myHouse, OnAlert).
To be more specific, I can still manually dim the lights at the switch. However, if I use the software to dim the light to 50%, it begins to dim, and then drops to say 7 or 8%. If i try to dim it again by clicking at 50% on the software, it shoots up to 100%. The remotes do not dim the lights at all now.
Any ideas (since it seems that the phase coupler was not the issue in the first place...and obviously I can't simply remove it since I need it to fix the phase issue I have). Could it be that the coupler I got (which was pretty $$$) is also a repeater and maybe I should have cheaped out and just got the coupler with no repeater?
Anyone else seen this problem? ???
-
Snoochy... I had the same problem when using the coupler/repeater. Thought I was doing the right thing early on by getting one. Turns out that the reapeater part didn't help. Multiple signals on the wire caused some strange things to happen.
I since went out and got the Passive Coupler and every thing went back to normal and worked good on both phases.
-
Couldn't agree more. Also trashed my leviton repeaer and installed a PASSIVE coupler and things improved dramatically.
Also the "boosterlinc" option in my SH keypadlinc makes the house go nuts.
These things *may* work if you have a lttle or no noise on the line. Also I have heard better things about the ACT line than I have heard about the leviton line - esp. the 6201.
GLT
-
FWIW
$0.02
I have used Leviton and ACT repeaters (CR230 and CR234), and yes the ACT work much better. They have higher output, I have never had them "lock-up" which the Leviton would do on regular basis, and they repeat DIMs correctly.
-
Thanks for this conversation. I read conflicting things, though. Several of you feel that couplers work better than repeaters; others feel that some repeaters work better than others. What's the real deal?
In my house, I can send commands to an X10 lamp module PLM01, if the lamp module is plugged into an outlet on the same floor as the CM15A, or if the lamp module is plugged into a bathroom circuit on the other floor; but I can't send commands to the PLM01 if it is plugged into an outlet on the other floor that isn't a bathroom outlet. I'm guessing that I need a repeater or a coupler, from other notes that I've read. If that's true, which one do I need? Any way I can test this to make sure before I buy?
Thanks
tl
-
Turning the dryer or stove on generally mimics a passive coupler.
1. How big is your house? Over 3500 sq. ft. and some recommend a repeater.
2. If you buy a repeater, buy the more expensive ACT (aka Homepro) one. Ya get what ya pay for (sometimes).
3. I love my wired in, passive coupler - but in the lightning capital of the world - they seem to go bad every 3-4 years. I HAVE a (working?) Leviton repeater in my JUNK box.
4. How serious about X-10 are you? I *THINK* if you buy a signal meter and FILTER all of the offending electrical items, the repeaters work better. Otherwise, they repeat and amplify noise.
5. See my post above.
GLT
-
tlemons
FWIW
I think I am echoing glt recommendations:
I think a repeater amp is a better way to go over a passive coupler. A STRONGER signal is always more desireable, regardless of house size.
I have used both ACT and Leviton repeaters and do not believe they will repeat "noise". I prefer the ACT models as they have a higher output and are not "dumb" (they handle DIM/BRI strings with no problems). I have had many problems with my Leviton going stoopid (simply locks up and does nothing), but it is a decade old, so may be a problems fixed long ago.
-
Thank you for the replies. I'm not an electrician, so I want to keep installation simple. Does the ACT HomePro repeater require electrician installation? I've seen some repeaters that plug into the dryer electrical plug, bridging the two house phases. Does an ACT model exist that does this? I Goggle'd around, but didn't see one.
Thanks
tl
-
I have not seen an ACT Brand that plugged into a Dryer Outlet. The Smarthome one does and I can verify with a AM14A or LM14A two way module. It can send a continuous stream of X10 garbage. On certain Addresses when first connected as it does a status request to the X10 controller and the request caused a firestorm of X10 signals.
-
It can send a continuous stream of X10 garbage. . . . the request caused a firestorm of X10 signals.
Ick. Are you saying that this Smarthome dryer repeater doesn't work, or doesn't work well?
tl
-
Just to add my two cents:
I have been using the Smarthome Plug-in Coupler/Repeater over the past year and a half. I have 25+ x10 modules (wired & plug-in), multiple motion sensors, all offending equipment filtered , and using AHP / CM15. My experience with the coupler/repeater has been great. My system is very reliable. Tried just a passive coupler, no go; I needed the signal boost. My house is just over 2200 S.F.
I have not experienced what Brian H has reported.
-
It works fine. Except the Status Request from the LM14A and AM14A two way modules; when powered up; can cause a firestorm of X10 signals and that is only on certain addresses.
-
Excellent; thank you, both.
What model repeater did you buy from SmartHome? I want to get what you got.
Thanks again
tl
-
tlemons
I purchased the SignaLinc Repeater 4-Wire Dryer (plug-in). Smarthome also has a 3-wire SignaLinc Repeater. You will need to look at your dryer plug to see which one you need. I have included the Smarthome links for both configurations.
SignaLinc Repeater 3-Wire Dryer (http://www.smarthome.com/4826b.html)
SignaLinc Repeater 4-Wire Dryer (http://www.smarthome.com/4826a.html)
Let use know how this works out for you.
Cheers ;D
-
Mine was the three wire 4826B. Four wire is 4826A
Note that could factor into this. They are both 30 Amp configured plugs. We had someone here with a 40 or 50 Amp dryer plug and the above didn't fit.
-
The problem you mention is a common and a very complex one. Assuming all the equipment is operating properly we know by definition that the signal is modulated on the power line at 120 KHz at the zero crossing point. This allows a usable signal of a few volts to be impressed on a line that has over 150V peak voltage. These signals are filtered with tuned circuits hence there is the possibility of alignment problems but they get a much stronger signal in the pass band. Good filters etc will give good results; poor filters will give marginal results. Remember that these units are low priced and at best have marginal filtering abilities.
The unit putting the voltage on the power line (transmitter) can only put out a few volts. The receiving unit (module) has a minimum sensitivity level for a valid signal. If the signal level is below the minimum erratic or no function occurs. Conversely if the signal is above the minimum the unit should operate properly.
Noise will swamp the front end of the receiving unit decreasing or eliminating its ability to receive and disseminate a valid signal. Noise is typically generated by an outside source.
The carrying media (power wiring) was never intended to handle low frequency RF (Radio Frequency) signals not was it designed to block them. The solution is to get enough good signal to the module so it can perform properly. Solving this gets complicated.
Attenuation of the signal is the proper way of saying the signal level is reduced. There will always be some attenuation of the signal in any normal system. The trick is to minimize the attenuation or at least keep it low enough so a good signal can get through.
There are three primary things capacitance, inductance and resistance that will attenuate the signal to a non usable level. Expect a combination of two or three of these working in conjunction to be causing the problem.
House wiring is a source of capacitance; the effect is definitely there at 120 KHz hence line length will have an effect. The resistance in typical power wiring will have no effect. The inductance can depend how the wire is routed and against what.
Power transformers are designed to operate at 50 or 60 Hz; consequently they have a high inductance which will stop the 120 KHz signal. You see this in a typical home and add a bridge between the phases to cause the 120 KHz to go around the transformer. The advantage of this is that your signals do not pass through to other systems.
AC (Alternating Current) loads such as heaters, lights etc consume AC and do not normally interfere with 120 KHz signals. Motors may or may not depending on there design. On the other hand electronic equipment most by design attenuates the 120 KHz signals. This is because the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) has placed restrictions on both conducted and radiated emissions allowed on commercial and residential equipment. Radiated emissions go through the air while conducted emissions go through the wiring. We are concerned with conducted emissions when working with X10.
Look at the cord that connects the video from your monitor to your computer. There is a swelling of some type near one or both of the plugs. This normally contains ferrite which attenuates high frequency signals.
Electronics needs DC (Direct Current) to operate internally. This comes from a power supply of some type. In bygone years most power supplies were built with a 60 HZ input transformer which isolated the unit from the power line (120 KHz as well). Depending on the transformer design many of these were not a problem.
Then came transformer less electronics such as TVs, these use higher frequencies which have to be isolated from the power line. The easiest way was to attenuate them. The attenuators were cheep but efficient and would kill a broad range of frequencies including 120 KHz signals. These do not pay any attention to the source of the signal they just attenuated them; this is consistent across just about all power supplies.
The cost of energy has kept increasing to the point energy conservation is important. The best way to save energy is to use less. The original power supplies at best could get an efficiency of 50%. The transformer less designs was approaching the 70% efficiency range. This is not good enough today so the switch mode power supplies have become popular. These are typically better then 95% efficient. These use high frequency designs and power MOSFETs (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effects Transistor). The MOSFETs can switch in the Megahertz range, and generate lots of high frequency noise. Consequently the line attenuators are much better and also attenuate the 120 KHz even more.
This is a short and simple explanation of what may be causing the problem; it is not an explanation of how to solve it, that is your job. The problems can and sometimes do get much more complicated then what I have covered her.
Good Luck
Gil Shultz