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Would be nice to have low cost set of
modules that are compatible with Compact
Flourescent bulbs. I bought x10 to better
manage my energy use and only the expensive
WS13 switch works with the energy saver
bulbs.
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heh i have thought the same thing... this
is probably an issue with bulb design which
will not be solved by x10.
As an alternative i have purchased an even
more efficient (although less bright so
maybe not?) led light bulb which uses only
3 watts i think. Using that bulb raises an
entirely different issue of leakage! Those
appliance modules leak voltage which is
undetectable with incandesents but the
efficient led actually generates a visible
light (although less bright than when on).
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You looking for wall switches or plug in
modules?
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Compact Flourescent bulbs do not work
properly with X10 modules due to the the
trickle current present in the module. When
the bulb is turned off by an X10 module,
there is a dim flicker in the Compact
Flourescent bulb.
I tried one in my lamp post, which is
controlled by an X10 wall switch. There was a
noticeable flicker in the bulb when off.
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The two wire wall switches steal power
through the lamps and yes will flicker
greatly. The three wire ones with a Neutral
Hot and Load and using a relay and not a
triac will work.
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Just a thought
I have not tried this
but a socket rocket makes a connection to
both sides of power before the "bulb"
that would give you control
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Other; Yes I have a CFL in a Socket Rocket
for maybe 3 months now. No problems.
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I currently use CFL with my setup and have not had a problem. You just need to determine where you want to use the CFL's before you buy the modules. I have 2 CFL's controled by one switch so I used an appliance switch, then I have two other CFL's controlled by socket rocket's (never had a problem). I also have an aquarium which uses flourescent tubes, and used plug in appliance modules and have not had a problem. The key is to use modules which do not dim or appliance modules. Since, these modules have the extra wiring needed to bypass CFL's interference.
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Both lamp and appliance modules leak a small current for the local control feature. This is fine for incandescent lamps and most appliances which have a relatively small resistance, but since CFLs have a large resistance (especially when off) and some brands will flicker even when the module is off. Some 3rd party modules allow you to turn off this small current (and thus local control) for these types of situations. Alternately you can easily modify your appliance module to do this (all you need is a screw driver and some wire nippers). You can find more information about this at http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Defeating local current sensing (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Defeating local current sensing).
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As others, I have used CF's with the socket rocket and have no problems with the setup save lack of control at the switch. They should have some way to turn on the socket rocket from a standard switch, then the setup would be perfect.
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All a standard switch would do is turn the power on or off to the Socket Rocket. The beauty of the Socket Rocket is that it has no code wheels or local control. You set the code by sending the same address 3 times, the Socket Rocket remembers the code and turns the light on. From then on the Socket Rocket remembers the code, even if the power fails. The fact that it's non-dimming makes it perfect for CFL's.
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I too have found Socket Rockets work fine with most CFLs. I have seen the triac in the Socket Rocket on one brand CFL cause enormous X10 Powerline noise and kill my system.
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They should have some way to turn on the socket rocket from a standard switch, then the setup would be perfect.
I know this is off thread, but I have often thought it would be great if they made a wired-in version of the socket rocket which replaces your existing light socket. It could have a push button on it for local control. Even better would be to have a tri-light version. I did see a project for modifying a wall-switch module to make a lamp truly locally controlable (both on and off), but I don't have a lamp in which I could easily install a push button.
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Here's a link to another possible solution to the CFL problems discussed here:
Re: Who Manufactures (and Who SELLS?) *DIMMABLE* CFL? (Read 2822 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9281.msg57138#msg57138)
[TTA Edit: Added description to LINK.]
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As others, I have used CF's with the socket rocket and have no problems with the setup save lack of control at the switch. They should have some way to turn on the socket rocket from a standard switch, then the setup would be perfect.
Even better would be a combination dimmable SocketRocket and touch-switch. Touch-switches sure beat groping around under a lamp shade for the usual socket switch.
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I use the CFLs and I have found that one in a package of two can create enough line "noise" to disrupt my X10 system. While the 2nd CFL may work just fine, with no noticeable line noise at all.
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NG: comp.home.automation - Compact Fluorescent Noise - Jeff Volp (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/browse_frm/thread/d1f3bde6e5e0e30d/e99ce90ea9b4b604?hl=en#e99ce90ea9b4b604)
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Compact Flourescents,
can be used with any fixture that does not allow dim. I had a set of CFS not cooperating and found out that the problem was with macros and timers, Since, I based most of my timers on dusk and dawn, the lights were never on in the mornings, shut of during the day, and ran all night long. I had to give hard time times to the timers. My timers were supposed to turn off at 6:15 am and turn on 30 minutes before dusk, due to the seasons they would shut off before they were turned on, I then learned to respect the use timers and not blame the use Compact Flourescents.
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X-10 needs to work with CFL manufactures, to provide devices that work with the X-10 technology. Some states are considering mandatory use of CFL's to conserve energy.
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X-10 needs to work with CFL manufactures, to provide devices that work with the X-10 technology.
Let's face it, CFL manufacturers don't give a hoot about X10. The bottom line is all that is important nowadays.
Jeff
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I think you are right.
I have CFLs in all my Socket Rockets, as they don't dim. I also put a CFL in every non X10 controlled lamp in my house. I've looked at dimmable CFLs, but they are either very expensive or not available in my area (Baltimore, MD). The only lamps that don't have CFLs in them are my Dining Room overhead fan, which one of these days is going on X10. Perhaps in that time dimmable CFLs will be available at reasonable prices.
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Like Dan I use CFL's about everywhere I can and in all my socket rockets. All my CFL's are Phillips and I have had no noise problems to date. (using 13 Watt and 23 Watt).
Here is a link to a dimmable 20 Watt CFL by Phillips for $9.95. I have not tried one.
http://www.prolighting.com/ph20wdicfl28.html
Most florescents, magnetic ballast or electronic ballast can be dimmed but it takes a special dimmer. You can expect to pay around $100 to $140 for the dimmer control.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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$9.95 for a dimmable CFL is highway robbery. You can buy non-dimmable CFLs in 3-6 packs for half that amount.
At $9.95 per, 4 would cost me nearly 40 bucks to put them in my fan lights if I put the fan/lights on X10 control. That's my major gripe.
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$9.95 for a dimmable CFL is highway robbery
Guess that entirely depends on the amount of electric savings over the life expectency of the bulb. It might actually be cheaper than a standard filament bulb of the same light output. ;)
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Thats true JimC... the 20 Watt is = to a standard 75 watt bulb. I have a 13 watt CFL thats on 24/7 and has been on about 8 months now. A standard bulb would have been replaced at least once maybe twice by now.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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I think we will see considerably more of the CFL's..... before they are banned. They contain heavy metal (mercury). As they save some pollution, by using less energy, that same energy will be consumed in the "recycling process".
The CFL's have been available for nearly a decade... I have been using them for eight years. Only now that they have become "cheap" (manufactured in china) are they catching on with the general public. And only now are the environmentalist beginning to holler. CFL's are going the way of the "plastic bag". Plastic bags replaced paper ones to save trees. Now plastic bags are being banned to save land fill.
I purchased three LED light bulbs the other day. (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=18-LED-CLR&cpc=RECOM) The bulbs have 18 LEDs in-cased in a plastic bulb-like defuser, but even with the defuser the light is very directional. They consume 1.3 watts each and (though no spec was included) I would guess one puts-out about as much light as a 15 watt incandescent bulb. The light is not white... even by CFL standards... seems to have a tint of green.
They work fine with my X10! They even dim smoothly (I didn't expect that).
For now, I am looking for brighter LED bulbs.... that only cost an arm... or a leg... instead of both. But, with a 100,000 hour life span any LED I buy could last me "forever". Another advanage, Led is much easier to spell than either incandescent or fluorescent.
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I have used CFL's in certain parts of my house, but the light output they provide is still lackluster compared to incandescent bulbs. They need to develop CFL's which are equivalent to higher wattage incandescent bulbs. I have a cieling fan with 4X 13 watt CFL's, not controlled by X-10, the light output sucks, and we use floor lamps to light the area.
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I have used CFL's in certain parts of my house, but the light output they provide is still lackluster compared to incandescent bulbs. They need to develop CFL's which are equivalent to higher wattage incandescent bulbs. I have a cieling fan with 4X 13 watt CFL's, not controlled by X-10, the light output sucks, and we use floor lamps to light the area.
Strange! I use CFL's almost exclusively and the output seems to match the "incandescent equivalent" quite nicely. Granted they take a minute or two to "warm up" to full brightness, but otherwise they are about the same (except less power used). Maybe you got a bad batch? ???
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I doubt that we got a bad batch on two cieling fans, but it might be possible that due to the light location, and position they are not able to provide enough usable light, but ambient light.
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Have not tried any with dimmers, but GE has a line of CFLs that are 6500K color scale bulbs. Like Bright White. The 4700Ks to me look dull.
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I have CFL's throughout except for the floodlights.
The thing about CFL's is the Color Spectrum:
Warm White - 2700K
Cool White - 4100K
Full Spectrum - 5000K
We are used to buying bulbs acording to wattage, however, when choosing CFL's y choose by the Color Spectrum (signified by K or Kelvin (heat) ).
If you're stuck on wattage then it works out that a 15 watt fluorescent bulb gives off as much light as a 60 watt incandescent bulb. A 20 watt fluorescent bulb gives off as much light as a 75 watt incandescent bulb and a 30 watt fluorescent bulb gives off as much light as a 100 watt incandescent bulb.
Hope this helps.
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I still believe that CFL's are not an answer for household lighting, I have no problem using a CFL for generic lighting purposes, but I have incadescent bulbs set up to cover the lack luster lighting provided by CFL's. My dad belives that flourescent is the key for everything, and has installed standard flourescent fixtures and CFL's thourghout the house, the problem is you can't figure out if your eating processing it the other end because it is so dim in his house.
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There's another problem with CFLs, and it will be hitting the news eventually: MERCURY!!!!!!
Like all florescent lamps, mercury (a small amout) is used to excite the chemicals that product the light. Because of that they cannot be placed in the trash, but put out separately. Most of the public doesn't know that. They will toss a burned out CFL in the trash, just like the current incandescent lamps they've been using for years. As more and more CFLs are used, the disposal problem will sneak up on municipal and private trash collectors. Due to the mercury, they can't just be tossed in the furnace at the processing station.
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HMMMM......
Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm lucky.... I'm not sure, but...
I have several CF lights controlled by a WS467 wall switch. The light output by the CFs is greater than the incandescents they replaced, and I haven't had any issues with disruption in X10 signals or the flickering problem that I have read about in this forum.
Until now...cause I probably just jinxed myself!! ;D
However comma, I did notice that when I tried to use a WS467 with a ceiling fan that there was a very loud hummmm from the fan. I'll try some of the things I read about in the forum to see if I can alleviate this problem.
We'll see....
8)
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I have a ceiling fan controlled by a WS13 switch and it produces a hummmm until the fan has fully speeded up. I suspect it's something in the powerline signals as the WS13 is designed for fans. It's a Decora switch and gets to live in a switch box.
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There's another problem with CFLs, and it will be hitting the news eventually: MERCURY!!!!!!
The mercury issue has been batted around a lot lately. There seems to be a tradeoff between the mercury used in CFLs versus the mercury released into the atmosphere as a byproduct of electric generation. The argument goes that since the CFLs use less electricity, the net amount of mercury released into the environment will be reduced.
While mercury is certainly something to consider, it would seem that anything that reduces total energy consumption is a good thing.
Jeff
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Like all florescent lamps, mercury (a small amount) is used to excite the chemicals that product the light. Because of that they cannot be placed in the trash, but put out separately
Dan this is not necessarily true. It all depends on where you live and how the trash is handled. In my state, for example, residents can place Florescent lamps out with the regular trash. Industry on the other hand must either recycle florescent bulbs or dispose of them as a hazardous waste. The amount of mercury in a CFL is no more than what is in a standard florescent light bulb. The larger concern for most people using CFL's or any mercury containing lamp is how to properly handle a bulb that gets broken within the house. Mercury is a toxic metal that is considered to be Bio accumulative (stays in the body). A good source of information on proper clean up of broken mercury containing bulbs can be found on most state environmental web sites. DO NOT USE A SHOP VAC.
As CFL's become more popular recycling centers will start to croup up. I believe that Home Depot in some areas already takes the bulbs back.
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I believe that CFLs are only an interim solution. Eventually we will be using LED bulbs throughout the house. Not only do they use much less electricity than even CFLs (they are over 90% efficient), they last much longer (about 100,000 hours) and work well with dimmers. While they have become very common with Christmas lights, flash lights and automotive lamps, from what I have heard, they are about 5 years away from widespread use in light fixtures as there are some hurdles to overcome which include:
- Price,
- Colour balance,
- Directionality (they are very directional), and
- Brightness (so far they only have them up to about a 25 watt equivalent)
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I believe that CFLs are only an interim solution. Eventually we will be using LED bulbs throughout the house. Not only do they use much less electricity than even CFLs (they are over 90% efficient), they last much longer (about 100,000 hours)
I thought that too, and tried to find a LED "incandescent replacement" for one location in our house. After some research, I was surprised to discover currently available LEDs are only about half as efficient "lumen for lumen" as fluorescent lights. And only the best LEDs approach the efficiency of compact fluorescent lights. Also, while a LED can last a very long time when run at low power, the life expectancy will degrade when pushed hard without adequate thermal control, as may be the case for a production consumer device.
Jeff
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.... Eventually we will be using LED bulbs ........ they are about 5 years away from widespread use
Your likely right about the five years.
I have three LED bulbs... though only two are in service right now. Mine cost about six dollars each, use 1.3 watts, emit about the same light as a 25 watt regular bulb (or 7 watt CFL). The light isn't pure white, it has a greenish-blue tint. The light is directional... sorta like a spotlight. Mine has a estimated life span of 40,000 hours.
There are much brighter, much whiter, much more omni-directional bulbs available NOW. The cost is high, but only because demand isn't high enough to create a competitive market for these bulbs. You can buy the LEDs on-line, I haven't seen anything but "LED night lights" in stores yet.
I use one of my LED bulbs in my garage. The garage has a overhead (single) light-bulb that is turned on and off with a hardwired motion sensor. The LED lights the room enough that I am never in the dark, if I stay out-of-range of the sensor too long, and the overhead light turns off. The LED bulb also provides just enough light for my garage camera (an X10 wired low-light) and "backs-up" the single bulb when it burns out.
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I am a fan of CFL's but did not consider the fact that they contain mercury. I know we can purchase standard flourescent bulbs without mercury, they usually have the green caps on the end. I still believe that I get better light from a standard bulb, over cfl's. Technology will eventually work its way, and provide people with energy effecient bulbs.
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I purchased three LED light bulbs the other day. (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=18-LED-CLR&cpc=RECOM) The bulbs have 18 LEDs in-cased in a plastic bulb-like defuser, but even with the defuser the light is very directional. They consume 1.3 watts each and (though no spec was included) I would guess one puts-out about as much light as a 15 watt incandescent bulb. The light is not white... even by CFL standards... seems to have a tint of green.
They work fine with my X10! They even dim smoothly (I didn't expect that).
For now, I am looking for brighter LED bulbs.... that only cost an arm... or a leg... instead of both. But, with a 100,000 hour life span any LED I buy could last me "forever". Another advanage, Led is much easier to spell than either incandescent or fluorescent.
Would LED bulbs work in a socket rocket?
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I purchased three LED light bulbs the other day. (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=18-LED-CLR&cpc=RECOM) The bulbs have 18 LEDs in-cased in a plastic bulb-like defuser, but even with the defuser the light is very directional. They consume 1.3 watts each and (though no spec was included) I would guess one puts-out about as much light as a 15 watt incandescent bulb. The light is not white... even by CFL standards... seems to have a tint of green.
They work fine with my X10! They even dim smoothly (I didn't expect that).
For now, I am looking for brighter LED bulbs.... that only cost an arm... or a leg... instead of both. But, with a 100,000 hour life span any LED I buy could last me "forever". Another advanage, Led is much easier to spell than either incandescent or fluorescent.
Would LED bulbs work in a socket rocket?
Yes!!!! I have CFL's in all my Socket Rockets, since they do not have a dimming capability.
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Would LED bulbs work in a socket rocket?
Yes!!!! I have CFL's in all my Socket Rockets, since they do not have a dimming capability.
Dan, just to clarify, I said LED not CFL. Unless you mean both LED and CFL work in socket rockets?
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..
just to clarify, I said LED not CFL. Unless you mean both LED and CFL work in socket rockets?
Yes they do! I continue to add more and more of the LED's.... I also use standard adapters to convert SocketRockets (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13945.msg80163#msg80163) into plug-in (light-duty) modules.
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Thanks, Dave, for this little tidbit. As always there is a wealth of information on these posts. That's why the forum should be required reading.
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CFL's, LED's, or some different form of technology is the answer,
I do find the LED's used for traffic signal's better to see, than incandescent lights, I have also found that some versions of CFL's give better light than other versions. I recently purchased a GE 6 pack of equivalent to 100 watt bulbs, and then some GE CFL's which gave off a whiter/bluer tent. The 100 watt conventional cfl's worked best in larger areas, while the more expensive white/blue tint looked gave strange shadows until all the bulbs were switched. The best advantage to using CFL's is that you can get more light from a signal fixture, the worst part is they are either on or off, and you have to purchase new modules to use them. The LED lights sound interesting and I have seen some uses of it, but it is it dimmable, and how does it compare to incandescent and CFL.
The Mercury concern with CFL's is about the amount of mercury released into the ground water when one is thrown away. Their are two two types of fluorescent tubes, ones with mercury and the ones without mercury. Industries have to properly dispose of the tubes containing mercury. The problem is that CFL's contain mercury and are being thrown away with traditional garbage, and the mercury is infilltrating landfills.
It would be great if x-10 would manufacture their own bulbs, but instead we have to realize that x-10 was based on older technology, and it would be unlikely for them support newer energy saving technologies.
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....The Mercury concern with CFL's is about the amount of mercury released into the ground water when one is thrown away. Their are two two types of fluorescent tubes, ones with mercury and the ones without mercury. Industries have to properly dispose of the tubes containing mercury. The problem is that CFL's contain mercury and are being thrown away with traditional garbage, and the mercury is infiltrating landfills....
I too don't believe this environment time bomb has been addressed. All you hear is replace your bulbs with CFLs to save energy. Not enough preparation and education has been made as to how to dispose of the CFL.
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I believe some States now have regulations requiring households to also dispose of CFLs with mercury correctly. They also have proper recycling centers to do it.
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I too don't believe this environment time bomb has been addressed. All you hear is replace your bulbs with CFLs to save energy. Not enough preparation and education has been made as to how to dispose of the CFL.
I believe some States now have regulations requiring households to also dispose of CFLs with mercury correctly. They also have proper recycling centers to do it.
It's a darn shame... we all just sort of... just pretend around the CFL issue.
Environmentalism has evolved into a religion. And whereas I respect the rights of others to practice they're believes. Laws that force me to conform to another religion... infringe on my rights.
I don't know when we 1st started using the phrase "save energy" when we actually mean . "use less energy" . . After all.... energy is a marketable consumer product. If I decided to listen to less music on FM radio.... would I be SAVING MUSIC.... or SAVING RADIO? My brother works for the phone company.... if I give up my land-line... would I be "SAVING THE PHONE COMPANY?" If I visit my doctor less.... am I "SAVING HEALTHCARE"?
So.... IMHO (correct me if I am wrong) CFL's consume less energy.... even though they contribute considerably more toxic hazards to my environment.... those who worship the environment, and claim it to be God..... prefer I use them.
So what is the reason for the "force of law" that would require me to convert to CFL's? There isn't one! Government has no more right to force me to use CFL's than they do to force me to give up Kosher products.
So what does any of this have to do with X10? NOTHING... and that's my point. The religious zealots that follow the teachings of Al Gore may want to drag X10... and this forum... into the on-going dragged-out debate of word-misuse. But the facts remain! X10 works fine with CFL's!
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It's a darn shame... we all just sort of... just pretend around the CFL issue.
Environmentalism has evolved into a religion. And whereas I respect the rights of others to practice they're believes. Laws that force me to conform to another religion... infringe on my rights.
I don't know when we 1st started using the phrase "save energy" when we actually mean . "use less energy" . . After all.... energy is a marketable consumer product. If I decided to listen to less music on FM radio.... would I be SAVING MUSIC.... or SAVING RADIO? My brother works for the phone company.... if I give up my land-line... would I be "SAVING THE PHONE COMPANY?" If I visit my doctor less.... am I "SAVING HEALTHCARE"?
So.... IMHO (correct me if I am wrong) CFL's consume less energy.... even though they contribute considerably more toxic hazards to my environment.... those who worship the environment, and claim it to be God..... prefer I use them.
So what is the reason for the "force of law" that would require me to convert to CFL's? There isn't one! Government has no more right to force me to use CFL's than they do to force me to give up Kosher products.
Sorry Dave, but I have to disagree with you on several points. Unlike music, when electrical energy is consumed, it is gone in that usable form. (Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it is changed from usable electrical energy to waste heat.) Sometimes I wish some music could be destroyed, but that is another story...
Regarding mercury, the environmentalists have gotten behind that issue to the detriment of CFLs. The old 4ft fluorescent tubes we have been using for decades also contain mercury. However, only recently has there been the uproar about mercury in fluorescent bulbs. These bulbs contain a minuscule amount of mercury. I understand that mercury is also released into the environment as a result of burning fossil fuels. Studies have shown there is a significant net savings of mercury released into the environment due to the "energy savings" over the lifetime of the CFL.
The government does have a right to tell us what to do when it benefits the country as a whole. We follow laws in our daily lives whose sole purpose is to protect our general welfare. Seatbelts, speed limits, stoplights are some examples. We are burning through fossil fuels at a horrendous rate. Eventually, they will run out. Whether or not burning fossil fuels contribute to global warming is secondary to the fact that the end of cheap energy is approaching. It is to our national benefit to make it last as long as possible so our children may still be able to afford transportation. I know there are people with money falling out of their pockets that don't give a damn. It is THEIR lifestyle that is important. They can afford it. Who cares about anyone else?
Well, I'm part of the group that does care. Most of our lighting is CFL now (totally compatible with X10). We try to reduce our energy consumption wherever practical. Cost is the primary factor, but I also believe in the general benefit to the country as a whole. The energy we don't waste today will be available for our children and grandchildren.
Jeff
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The government does have a right to tell us what to do when it benefits the country as a whole. We follow laws in our daily lives whose sole purpose is to protect our general welfare.
Sorry Jeff..... I forget we're NOT all American here at this forum. Force of law is a American legal term. In America only PEOPLE have rights.
..... We are burning through fossil fuels at a horrendous rate. Eventually, they will run out.
Fossil fuel? Where did that term come from..... the early 1800's I think. Not a term used by anyone I know..... not for some time. All iron rocky planets generate gravity... and hence heat. Heat + pressure + iron = methane.... A known fact for some time. The complete chemistry of how the extra carbon turns the gas to oil and coal (or where it comes from) is not completely known yet.
The only thing that is known with any degree of certainty is Gas and oil was produced by planet earth today.... and will be again tomorrow.. as it has been since the beginning. As it has been everywhere that rocky planets have been detected. Even places like our moon and Mars (not to mention Titian).... fossils and fuels have nothing to do with each other.
Well, I'm part of the group that does care. Most of our lighting is CFL now (totally compatible with X10). We try to reduce our energy consumption wherever practical. Cost is the primary factor, but I also believe in the general benefit to the country as a whole. The energy we don't waste today will be available for our children and grandchildren.
We agree completely on the X10 compatible part!
I just think the religion connected to CFL's doesn't belong on the forum...... and I don't understand why it keeps reappearing here.
Jeff... please understand... I completely respect your belief system. I have no desire to drag your grandkids into my church and tell them about souls. For many my belief in a higher power is just plain foolish... and I understand that. For many... the belief is; that control of the masses must be obtained by other means. Other meaning: not by traditional religion. I am ok with that too.... but don't expect to see me bend a knee to this "new age religion".... maybe I am just too old to be rational.
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I'm glad to hear that x10 works with cfl. They are becoming very cheap and many people are using them. I personally have switched all of my lights and will take them to the correct place for disposal as I do for batteries.
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Fossil fuel? Where did that term come from..... the early 1800's I think. Not a term used by anyone I know..... not for some time. All iron rocky planets generate gravity... and hence heat. Heat + pressure + iron = methane.... A known fact for some time. The complete chemistry of how the extra carbon turns the gas to oil and coal (or where it comes from) is not completely known yet.
The only thing that is known with any degree of certainty is Gas and oil was produced by planet earth today.... and will be again tomorrow.. as it has been since the beginning. As it has been everywhere that rocky planets have been detected. Even places like our moon and Mars (not to mention Titian).... fossils and fuels have nothing to do with each other.
Dave, I think you have a few mistakes above. All planets generate gravity, even the gas giants that do not have a rocky core. Gravity does not in itself generate heat. In the earth's core the slow decay of radioactive materials is the source of the heat, not the pressue from gravity. I do agree that an increase in pressure can generate heat in a compressable medium - that's how most refrigeration units work - but steady state pressure does not.
If you have a problem with the term "fossil fuel", perhaps you should read Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel
Yes, oil, gas, and coal was produced by the earth. It is generally accepted that the source of the carbon in coal and oil was plantlife that existed millions of years ago. (There is an alternate theory that gases were produced by non-organic processes.) Yes, the earth will continue to produce hydrocarbon fuels, but at a tiny rate compared with the rate they are being consumed.
Jeff
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Dave, I think you have a few mistakes.
No.... just follow your own links Jeff. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin) The science we were taught back when... was wrong. How many elements did they say we had back when you learned science?
It has long been believed that OPEC has adjusted oil production to match what they believe to be the IN-exhaustable amount they have. A far cry from TINY rate.
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...But the facts remain! X10 works fine with CFL's!
Well yes and no. While CFLs can work with X10 if you use strategically use filters, I have yet to see one that I can send a dim to 5% and have it go down to virtually no light (most dimmables I've seen will only dim to about 20%). I also wouldn't trust most if not all with soft start modules and wall switches.
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No.... just follow your own links Jeff. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin) The science we were taught back when... was wrong. How many elements did they say we had back when you learned science?
It has long been believed that OPEC has adjusted oil production to match what they believe to be the IN-exhaustable amount they have. A far cry from TINY rate.
You left out the word "theory". It is generally accepted that hydrocarbons are the result of decaying plant matter. The fact that coal and oil shale appear in sedimentary layers pretty much confirms that fact with regard to those two hydrocarbons. I understand the theories regarding oil, but from that same entry, it says "the vast majority of Western petroleum geologists consider the biogenic theory of petroleum formation scientifically proven." Just like we have been depleting our own reserves, eventually the OPEC oil fields will be depleted. Of course by then they will own most of this and other countries that are the major oil importers.
A number of new radioactive "elements" have been created in the laboratory. Some have very short halflives. Over time they will all decay to the basic elements we learned about in school. A major scientific issue that did change since my highschool days was plate tectonics.
Clearly you have your own opinions. I hope you can at least agree that converting to CFLs will reduce the rate at which fossil fuel (primarily coal) is being consumed to produce electricity. It will "save" energy, just like putting money in the bank to take out later when you need it.
Jeff
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You left out the word "theory". ................. I understand the theories regarding oil, but from that same entry,............theory of petroleum formation scientifically proven."...................A number of new radioactive "elements" have been created in the laboratory. Some have very short halflives. Over time they will all decay to the basic elements we learned about in school. A major scientific issue that did change since my highschool days was plate tectonics.
Clearly you have your own opinions.
No Jeff.... you mis-understand completely! I believe in a traditional higher power... what many call God. It is fine with me if you or any number of others prefer to believe the new religion of environmentalism. I won't quote you scriptures..... and you can keep your "theories regarding oil" to yourself. I don't think this forum is a proper place for you to preach your sermons for the belief...... of whatever it is you believe in.
Many years ago... when I was a young man. While stationed in Germany I had a beer with a former SS Agent. As he drank he told stories about his military career.... until he broke down in tears. Environmentalist aren't the first to attempt to destroy religions with "popular So-called-science". I remember those who lost their lives because no one spoke up... and I SPEAK UP FOR THEM. I refuse to live in fear.... and I am NOT alone.
I will not bend a knee to the strange ideas of any man or government. I respect your rights to worship as you choose. But I am not a convert for you Jeff.
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Adding my two cents to this (non X10) topic: I'm very unimpressed thusfar with this new "green" lighting.
I recently replaced 1800 Watts of incandescent overhead lighting with CFLs. They're so dim when they first come on that I often just leave them on instead of turning on and off when needed.
And then there are the regular fluorescent tube lamps with the green colored end caps. Half the time they won't come on at all.
(The above lighting is all controlled with regular toggle switches - there's no X10 involved.)
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A thank-you to steven r for sharing this video link with me. IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT ENERGY SAVER LIGHT BULBS!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg (http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg) Pay close attention so you can get your required clean-up kit together!
Adding my two cents to this (non X10) topic: I'm very unimpressed thusfar with this new "green" lighting.................
Don't worry about the quality, or less power usage, or even the safety (not even mentioning that many of these bulbs are KNOWN fire hazards) The main thing is that you show NO Resistance to a government that has NO CONSTITUTIONAL POWER to take this control over you and your household. Be prepared to change religions.
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Although I have enjoyed reading this thread, even looking forward to seeing a reply by either Dave or Jeff :' on their slightly off topic debate I think this thread needs to get back on track. Gravity, God and Government is best left to science since all three have mysterious properties. rofl (Maybe we need a special place where good debates can take place -:). To me a good debate is when I can relate to both parties such as Dave and Jeff's here, however this is the wrong thread for it.)
Charles Sullivan
I started out with all 13 watt CFL's (60 watt equivalents) and found the quality to be poor. What watt CFL's are you using? I am slowly switching over to 23 watt CFL's (100 watt equivalents) because I find the quality to be night and day difference. At the moment all my CFL's are controlled by X10 RocketSockets and work great. All my CFL's are Phillips or GE.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR