X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: bigbear1969 on April 11, 2006, 06:45:12 PM
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I currently have an extensive x10 system operating on the original activehome software. I am using a high reflection window shade which pulls down by hand from my ceiling for a screen for my video projector. I would like to motorize it and control the motor using x10. Any advice would be appreciated, but my specific concerns are:
1) What kind of motor should I use?
2) Should I use mechanical limits?
3) Is there a way to control both up and down from a single x10 unit or will I need to do 1 for up and 1 for down (polarized motor)?
4) Is it really necessary to use the inductive units for motors or will a simple appliance module handle it (I've found this to be the case with ceiling fans)
5) Is there a way to use a dimming command to set a height (ie 100% = all the way up, 50% = halfway down, 0% = all the way down)?
Thanks for any help.
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I currently have an extensive x10 system operating on the original activehome software. I am using a high reflection window shade which pulls down by hand from my ceiling for a screen for my video projector. I would like to motorize it and control the motor using x10. Any advice would be appreciated, but my specific concerns are:
Automating draperies, blinds and shades (and thus screens) is one thing that currently isn't very well implemented in X10. Theoretically it is possible, X10 even added extended commands for controlling "Shutters and Sunshades" (see Extended X10 code format (http://ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/xtc798.doc)), but to my knowledge, no one has ever implemented it.
I don't have any first hand experience with this, but I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.
1) What kind of motor should I use?
Does your screen have a chain (or U loop cord) for raising or lowering it or does it have a spring retractor? If it uses a chain, you can use a Motorized Drape Controller (http://www.smarthome.com/3142.html) or a Whisper-Quiet Motorized Drape Controller (http://www.smarthome.com/3182.html). Otherwise you will have to hack something together yourself.
2) Should I use mechanical limits?
I believe both of the above controllers have limit settings.
3) Is there a way to control both up and down from a single x10 unit or will I need to do 1 for up and 1 for down (polarized motor)?
The first option above uses one regular appliance module and the second one uses one universal module.
4) Is it really necessary to use the inductive units for motors or will a simple appliance module handle it (I've found this to be the case with ceiling fans)
Inductive load switches are only needed if you want to adjust the speed of the motor with X10. In your case either an appliance or universal module should do.
5) Is there a way to use a dimming command to set a height (ie 100% = all the way up, 50% = halfway down, 0% = all the way down)?
Theoretically yes, but you would have to design your own controller to do this. To my knowledge, there aren't any commercial implementations of this.
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bigbear1969: I've seen Posts on this some there are a few Posts on motorized blinds on here with explanations as to how also if you check out AccessHA (http://www.accessha.com/forums/index.php?) there is a section devoted to Home Theater and Entertainment and many users there have set up screens which are automated!
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Thanks. I will check out those sections. I have a spring retractor, so, I'll to fabricate the motor to screen connection. I really wanted advice on what type of motor to use. Assuming I use my own motor and not the pre-fabbed drape controller, would I need to put mech limits on the motor or is there a way to limit it with the x10 module/controller?
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Bigbear1969
I use X10 to open and close two sets of drapes in the house. I use two appliance modules for each drape motor("Graber brand). I use the Homeseer program to decide whether drapes are open or closed and hence which direction to run the motors (by flag control). This lets me use one button control (press once for open, a second press closes them). AHP and the CM15A can also do this simple logic and timing task.
I would definately recommend limit switches. X10 commands are simply too unreliable to rely on X10 control of the STOP function.
Don't know how big your screen is, but have you thought about using a power screwdriver as your drive? If you can find a power screwdriver with a clutch mechanism, you might be able to get away without the limit switches by relying on the clutch mechanism to prevent winding the screen around itself. You would still need two appliance modules or two universal modules for direction and power control.
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I have a spring retractor, so, I'll to fabricate the motor to screen connection.
I would be tempted to not use the spring retractor and twist the retractor mechanism with the rod. Trying to disable the clutch to allow it to retract could be tricky.
I use two appliance modules for each drape motor("Graber brand).
Why not have a universal module (or appliance module) control a DPDT relay that turns the motor on in the correct direction and have the limit switches turn the motor off.
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I use the Homeseer program to decide whether drapes are open or closed and hence which direction to run the motors (by flag control). This lets me use one button control (press once for open, a second press closes them). AHP and the CM15A can also do this simple logic and timing task.
How would I access this type of control in Active Home with a CM11A. Will Homeseer overlay onto Active Home or is it independent?
Don't know how big your screen is, but have you thought about using a power screwdriver as your drive? If you can find a power screwdriver with a clutch mechanism, you might be able to get away without the limit switches by relying on the clutch mechanism to prevent winding the screen around itself. You would still need two appliance modules or two universal modules for direction and power control.
Don't think this will help (or that I would trust it) Will probably go with a small hobby motor with mechanical limits. Thanks.
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I would be tempted to not use the spring retractor and twist the retractor mechanism with the rod. Trying to disable the clutch to allow it to retract could be tricky.
I won't be using the spring just mentioned it as contrast to the chain or string pull. I will core the shade before attaching a motor.
I use two appliance modules for each drape motor("Graber brand).
Why not have a universal module (or appliance module) control a DPDT relay that turns the motor on in the correct direction and have the limit switches turn the motor off.
Sorry I don't understand relays very well. How would I wire this?
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I am using 2 light modules (XPDF) to control a motor to raise and lower a set of roman shades measuring 8'x8'. I'm using a universal motor for it's reversing capabilities. The rest of the control circuit is amde up of 2 - 115VAC coil 115VAC DPDT relays; 2 - 12VDC coil 115VAC N.C. relays; 1 - 12VDC transformer; 2 - N.O. magnetic limit switches; and 2 - XPDF modules. The transformer, magnetic limit switches and 12VDC relays are part of the safety system wired so when shades are at the up limit or down limit the appropriate switch will close and energize the 12vdc relay coil thus opening the 115vac contacts feeding power (white wire on module) to XPDF module. Two seperate circuits on for the up and one for down, so in full down position, the down XPDF module has power cut off, but up module is still available and vice versa when in up position. Since the XPDF module defaults to the off position when power is reapplied (to my knowledge the appliance modules won't do that, they stay in the same position they were originally in before power was cut), it won't turn back on when shades are going back up and open the magnetic switches re-energizing the down module. I used 12vdc for the relay coil control because I didn't want to have 115vac running up between the limit switches, 12vdc makes me feel safer.
The XPDF modules then are wired to control the coils of the DPDT relays to actually power the motor. Since the XPDF modules are circuit based internally and not recommended for motor controls I isolate them from the motor by using a low amp draw realay. I then wire the two DPDT relays so when one module is activated it powers the motor to go up, but also it cuts the power feed to the other relay as a safety in case the second XPDF module is turned on while the other is running. This keeps from simultaneously trying to activate the forward and reverse to the motor and burning it up or starting a fire.
In written word it may sound complicated, but it's a very basic relay circuit. If you don't understand relay circuits, you really should hire someone that does to do the work since it's VERY easy to get wires crossed and create a short when activated.
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Uhhh... thanks?
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Sorry I don't understand relays very well. How would I wire this?
I have attached a diagram which shows how you would do this. I have it using an appliance module controlling a 120V relay. To use a universal module, you would need to wire a power source in series with it.
(Diagram because it had a mistake in it. I will post a corrected diagram.)
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Thanks roger. This is exactly what I need. I've found a reversable 0.2 hp motor that should work well with this config. I will build on my next day off and post back here with results.
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Thanks roger. This is exactly what I need. I've found a reversable 0.2 hp motor that should work well with this config. I will build on my next day off and post back here with results.
Ooops! I just looked at my diagram again and realized that it isn't going to work like that. Let me correct it and I will re-post the diagram. Sorry about that.
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There is a mistake in my diagram. Here is the correct one. Sorry about that.
You will have to play with the polarity of the motor powersupply to make it so that it travels in the correct direction.
BTW. One disadvantage of using this method is that it will not allow you to stop the blind part way up or down.
[I put the GIF file back but at a lower resolution. The PDF is still there for anyone who wants to print it. - Roger1818]
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I use the Homeseer program to decide whether drapes are open or closed and hence which direction to run the motors (by flag control). This lets me use one button control (press once for open, a second press closes them). AHP and the CM15A can also do this simple logic and timing task.
How would I access this type of control in Active Home with a CM11A. Will Homeseer overlay onto Active Home or is it independent?
Don't know how big your screen is, but have you thought about using a power screwdriver as your drive? If you can find a power screwdriver with a clutch mechanism, you might be able to get away without the limit switches by relying on the clutch mechanism to prevent winding the screen around itself. You would still need two appliance modules or two universal modules for direction and power control.
Don't think this will help (or that I would trust it) Will probably go with a small hobby motor with mechanical limits. Thanks.
Sorry bigbear, I have been gone for a while.
No Homeseer will not import AH or AHP. I can use the CM11 as hardware I/O for the computer, otherwise Homeseer is totally independent. AH (as my feeble mind recalls) does not utilize "flags" You need flags to use the one button opens and closes ( or one button raises/lowers). AHP can do it. Smarthome can do it if you use "vitual X10 modules" as your flags. AH does not have "conditionals" or flags.
Re: the power screwdriver vs hobby motor w/limit switches.
Yeah, I was refering to a "rechargable" power screwdriver with a clutch. You would have to gut the batteries/switch, etc. I did not know you could buy hobby motors complete with limit switches which would be powerful enough to raise you screen. Yes, that would be a far better solution than "jury rigging" a rechargeable screwdriver.
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I have a spring retractor, so, I'll to fabricate the motor to screen connection.
I would be tempted to not use the spring retractor and twist the retractor mechanism with the rod. Trying to disable the clutch to allow it to retract could be tricky.
I use two appliance modules for each drape motor("Graber brand).
Why not have a universal module (or appliance module) control a DPDT relay that turns the motor on in the correct direction and have the limit switches turn the motor off.
Roger - yeah, Universal module and DPDT relay will do the job also. I just used two Appliance modules only because the "Grabber" drape motor forward and reverse windings are 120V and I utilized the Grabber limit switches. So appliance modules worked well with little other "plumbing".