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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: krisbee on May 08, 2006, 10:53:06 AM

Title: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on May 08, 2006, 10:53:06 AM
Hello there,

I have two wall switches that worked for several years, and then all of a sudden, they wouldn't respond to lights on command, only lights off... then, after a few weeks, they won't respond to any remote commands.  They still work locally, but not remotely.  I went and bought two new internal wall light switches, replaced the old ones, figuring some kind of power surge got them, but the new ones work exactly the same.  I have tried different house and number codes to no avail.  This makes no sense, does it?  What happened?

What can I do?  Getting pretty frustrated...

Thanks in advance,
Kris
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: billy on May 08, 2006, 02:13:31 PM
Kris,

What are you using to control the switches with ?
Add any new electronic devices or appliances ?
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on May 08, 2006, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: billy on May 08, 2006, 02:13:31 PM
...Add any new electronic devices or appliances ?
...including any new surge protectors or UPSs!
Do other switches in the house work? If so temporarily switch one of the working ones to the same code as the switch that isn't working and see if it works.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on May 09, 2006, 11:36:14 AM
New appliances.. No.  To control the devices, I am using the plug in controller with the 8 switches... as well as a wall mounted hardwired four switch model.  No surge protectors or UPS's that are new (and no UPS's at all).  There are two plug in modules that work fine, as well as one dimmer switch hard wired model that works just fine.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on May 09, 2006, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: krisbee on May 09, 2006, 11:36:14 AM
...I am using the plug in controller with the 8 switches...
What happens if you move the controller closer or different outlets in the house? Does it start working?

Did you try temporarily switching one of the working ones to the same code?

Also try changing the code on the non working switch to a code that works for something else?

Do you have AHP or anything that can show you any signals sent?

These tests, while not foolproof, will help determine it is a defective controller or switch or a line signal problem. I'm betting on a signal problem. This can be either a weak signal or noise on the line. Possible solutions include a signal boaster, noise filters and/or a phase coupler. Also while you can still benefit from a phase coupler even if this test fails, try turning on an electric drier (220V).

Has anyone out there ever had a switch lose sensitivity to a signal? ie Have it stop working or work erratically after a period of time.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: Dan Lawrence on May 09, 2006, 01:58:16 PM
Believe it or not, I have.

Back in the CP 290 days, the wall switch in my bedroom, A5, stopped being recognized by my X10 control program. It would work manually, but the program could not control it, or would it's time program function woek. I changed the address on the wall switch to A6 and changed it in the control program  as well and it worked and still works today with AHP.

It was the 290 that was failing. When a second address stopped working, I called my local X10 dealer and biought Active Home.

When Active Home Pro came along, I used A5 for a keypress macro that shuts off all lights on housecodes A, C & F
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on May 09, 2006, 03:01:04 PM
Quote
What happens if you move the controller closer or different outlets in the house? Does it start working?

Yes I did try moving it around.. it didn't work. :(

Quote
Did you try temporarily switching one of the working ones to the same code?
I did.. no avail

Quote
Also try changing the code on the non working switch to a code that works for something else?
Yup.. nothing.

Quote
Do you have AHP or anything that can show you any signals sent?
[
I don't.

Quote
These tests, while not foolproof, will help determine it is a defective controller or switch or a line signal problem. I'm betting on a signal problem. This can be either a weak signal or noise on the line. Possible solutions include a signal boaster, noise filters and/or a phase coupler. Also while you can still benefit from a phase coupler even if this test fails, try turning on an electric drier (220V).

I will try the dryer trick.  I was wondering if I had lost some kind of signal across the phases.  I tried an outlet directly under the light switch, hoping they were in-line... but I don't think they were when I flipped the breaker.  I guess I should switch out the dimmer switch that works with the on/off switch, and see if it is the unit or the line that's the problem.  Might have to wait until this weekend.

Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on May 09, 2006, 03:58:56 PM
Quote from: krisbee on May 09, 2006, 03:01:04 PM
...I will try the dryer trick.  I was wondering if I had lost some kind of signal across the phases.  I tried an outlet directly under the light switch, hoping they were in-line... but I don't think they were when I flipped the breaker.  I guess I should switch out the dimmer switch that works with the on/off switch, and see if it is the unit or the line that's the problem.  Might have to wait until this weekend.
Sounds like you're well on your way to becoming an experienced X10 user.  ;D

Without a phase coupler, the X10 signal sometimes has to travel all the way to the street transformer to return its signal. This distance can result in unreliable results. While the coupler is an investment, I recommend every serious X10 user have one. - There are online instructions telling you how to put a capacitor across breakers but this takes care and respect for the power of electricity. Also wiring codes frown on it. (It is the cheapest approach, however.)

While it has its share of challenges at times (Murphy occasionally plays with my system.), the X10 system is an incredible bargain for what it can do.

Check out the mini timer at http://www.x10minitimer.com/. It's a nice timer till you get ready to move up to AHP. Even if you do get AHP you can still use the mini timer as a bed side timer to access macros in the AHP. eg. I have a wakeup macro in AHP that turns on my room light, waits 2 min, turns on the radio, waits 3 min and then turns the overhead light. While it's easy to set a start time for my macro in AHP, a bedside timer set to trigger the AHP macros can be even easier to set when you don't want to get out of bed and go to the computer.

Just a small taste of what you can do. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on May 10, 2006, 08:22:02 AM
The dryer trick didn't work, so I am left with swapping out a known good switch that's a different design and trying that.  I will give an update when I get to do that.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on May 10, 2006, 08:40:44 AM
Quote from: krisbee on May 10, 2006, 08:22:02 AM
The dryer trick didn't work...
When the "dryer trick" works, its a good indicator that a phase coupler will be useful.
Unfortunately, as Murphy would have it, even if you do fail the "dryer trick" a phase coupler maybe useful.

Quote
...I am left with swapping out a known good switch that's a different design and trying that....
Also try putting the switch in question where the good one was.

Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on May 10, 2006, 09:41:19 AM
Check out Roger1818's excellent article he wrote on Phase Coupling. http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: roger1818 on May 10, 2006, 01:18:35 PM
Quote from: steven r on May 10, 2006, 09:41:19 AM
Check out Roger1818's excellent article he wrote on Phase Coupling. http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling

Thanks for the compliment Steven!   ;D
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on May 31, 2006, 02:05:00 PM
Wow, life has been busy for a bit...

I finally got around to swapping the switches around.  The dimmer switch didn't work in the regular switch location, and the regular switch worked in the dimmer's location.

So we know, it is the wiring, not the switch.

So, this location just up and stopped working.  I really can't think of any new appliances that made the change.  Like I said, the dryer trick didn't work.  I would hate to spend money on a phase coupler and find out that it didn't work.  I suppose the best test (but I hate to do it), is flip all of the circuit breakers off except the lamps in the house, and see if I get a signal through that way.

If anyone else has any other advice, I would welcome it!

Thanks for everyone's help... I will keep at it!
Kris
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: roger1818 on May 31, 2006, 03:00:21 PM
Quote from: krisbee on May 31, 2006, 02:05:00 PM
I finally got around to swapping the switches around.  The dimmer switch didn't work in the regular switch location, and the regular switch worked in the dimmer's location.

So we know, it is the wiring, not the switch.

That isn't surprising.  I figured it wasn't the switch.

Quote
So, this location just up and stopped working.  I really can't think of any new appliances that made the change.  Like I said, the dryer trick didn't work.  I would hate to spend money on a phase coupler and find out that it didn't work. 

On one hand I would hate to say that getting a phase coupler will fix your problem and then find out it doesn't, but on the other hand I truly believe that even if it doesn't fix this problem, it will probably prevent future problems.  In my opinion, anyone who is serious about X10 should have some sort of phase coupler. 

You could always put a 0.1uF, 600VDC capacitor across the phases and see if that helps.  If there is a half decent electronics shop locally (not Radio Shack) you should be able to pick one up for at most a couple bucks which isn't much of an investment.  I wouldn't bother mail-ordering one though as by the time you payed for the S&H you could almost have covered the cost of a proper passive coupler (Automated Outlet sells the 4816H Hardwired SignaLinc™ Phase Coupler (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=445&cat=42&page=1) for $15.99).

Quote
I suppose the best test (but I hate to do it), is flip all of the circuit breakers off except the lamps in the house, and see if I get a signal through that way.

If anyone else has any other advice, I would welcome it!

Check out a tutorial I wrote on Troubleshooting X10 Home Automation (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Troubleshooting_X10_Home_Automation).  It is still a work under progress, but it should have some helpful hints.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: billy on May 31, 2006, 03:09:13 PM
I finally got around to swapping the switches around.  The dimmer switch didn't work in the regular switch location, and the regular switch worked in the dimmer's location.
So we know, it is the wiring, not the switch.

Dimmer + Regular switch? what are the model #'s of these switches?
Also what kind of light are you trying to turn on and off?
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on June 01, 2006, 08:52:02 AM
Quote
Dimmer + Regular switch? what are the model #'s of these switches?
Also what kind of light are you trying to turn on and off?

I am at work right now, so I don't have the model numbers... But, I am turning on a few track lights in a few locations.  All regular spotlight bulbs.

The switch is a simple on off, square button, with a slide under it.  The dimmer is a large switch the size of the plate, the rocks back and forth to dim.  If you hit the switch quickly, it shuts on/off.  Hold it, and it dims.

Well, for $15, I might as well give it a try!
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: billy on June 01, 2006, 10:36:53 AM
krisbee,
It's strange that you moved your plug-in controller around to different outlets and could not find one that works.
In a typical setting 1/2 of the light/outlets/appliances would be on the same phase, giving you a 50% chance of it working.
You may want to try it again, using more outlets.

May the Odds be with you!
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on June 01, 2006, 11:13:25 AM
Argh... Murphy seems to be getting the upper hand. However, even Murphy has to work within the laws of physics. (I think.)
I think its about time to get out the check list and go back to step one. One test I wasn't clear if you had done was to change the code of a nearby unit and see what happened. ie If this switch is set for "C5", change the code in the next room to "C5" also. Don't physically move any switches for this test. Maybe even test with a lamp module set to "C5". Better yet flip off the circuit breaker for the switch in question. That would insure we were testing on the same phase also. Then find an outlet or another switch on the same breaker and set it to "C5". I'd like to make sure the signal is getting to the switch.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on June 01, 2006, 02:34:22 PM
Well, I did actually do this test already.

I set the bad switch to a different house code, and that didn't help.

I set the bad switch to the same code as something that was working, and the bad switch didn't respond, but the one that always worked did.

I have moved the plug in controller to the ac outlet directly under the switch, figuring they would be on the same circuit (they aren't!), and that didn't help

I have changed the code of a working light to the code of the non-working item, and the code still made the working light work.

Here is where I think things might be getting weird... The switch that used to be there was a three-way.  I have tied the two wires that I need to make it a two-way switch.  Perhaps I have done this wrong, and somehow the signal used to work, but now something is causing enough interference to make it not work.

I do think making a lamp work on an ac outlet might be a great test.  I just have to find something on that circuit.  That will be my next test.

Thank you again for all of your help
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on June 01, 2006, 06:03:32 PM
Quote from: krisbee on June 01, 2006, 02:34:22 PM
....Here is where I think things might be getting weird... The switch that used to be there was a three-way.  I have tied the two wires that I need to make it a two-way switch.  Perhaps I have done this wrong, and somehow the signal used to work, but now something is causing enough interference to make it not work....
What happened to the other 3-way switch? Did you take it out or just leave it in place? Try switching it. If you have shorted the right pair of wires it shouldn't make a difference. If it does make a difference, then you may have the wrong two wires or a defective switch.

A conventional 3-way light is wired like this. The hot line goes to one switch and two wires connect the two switches.

                           A                                 B
                             __________________.             light
     Hot_________/  __________________.  .______?____
AC                                                                                 |
     Neutral________________________________________|

For the sake of this discussion, I've labeled the original standard switches A and B. While I prefer to replace 3-way switches with 3-way X10 switches, shorting the right pair of wires will allow you to install a standard 2-way X10 switch. For the sake of this discussion, switch B is being bypassed and A is being replaced with a standard X10 switch.

Let's look at why it might not work, however.


Best bet, if you're guessing wires, is to short all 3 wires, both reds and the blue. This will give you a 67% chance of guessing the right pair for the X10 switch. $2 at WalMart will buy you a neon tester and increase your odds.  :)

Remember: Unlike a conventional switch connection, X10 must have a flow of current through the switch at all times. This is why X10 switches are made just for 3-way applications. Also remember to put a wire nut over any extra wires!
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on June 02, 2006, 08:56:59 AM
I'm sorry for you to have to write all that out.  I should have noted that yes, I did short the other switch that is no longer used, removed the switch, and put a blank plate up in that location.  I did wire everything back to a two wire system.  And yes, the X10 is getting constant current.

It's a head scratcher... will investigate a bit more next week.

You have been great in helping, I was starting to dead-end in my troubleshooting thinking, but you have rejuvinated me!
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on June 04, 2006, 10:29:35 PM
Quote from: krisbee on June 02, 2006, 08:56:59 AM
I'm sorry for you to have to write all that out..... ...you have rejuvinated me!
No problem if it didn't help you, it will help someone else sometime.

Sometimes the oddest little thing can screw things up. I had one macro that all of a sudden stopped working. I tried all kinds of things to figure out what might be keeping it from working. Then I glanced over and noticed a battery operated air pump I had plugged in to charge. I thought what the H*** and unplugged it. Sure enough the macro started working. Then I remembered an old TripLite Isobar noise filter & surge suppressor I had laying around. I plugged the battery to be charged into the Isobar and wala the macro started working. While surge suppressors can sap X10 signals, the noise filter did the trick in this case.

I hope you figure out your problem soon.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on October 16, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
It's been awhile since I updated you on this problem.. mostly because it fixed itself.  Really.  Nothing was changed... It was in the same season (so it wasn't that the AC turned to heat, or some kind of different routine, etc.)

I just don't understand.  I should be glad that it works now, but I also know that out of nowhere, it may not work again.  Maybe there was interference from a neighbor, but the nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away.

If anyone has any ideas, I would love to know them.  Thank you again to all that have replied in the past.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: roger1818 on October 16, 2006, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: krisbee on October 16, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
It's been awhile since I updated you on this problem.. mostly because it fixed itself.  Really.  Nothing was changed... It was in the same season (so it wasn't that the AC turned to heat, or some kind of different routine, etc.)

I just don't understand.  I should be glad that it works now, but I also know that out of nowhere, it may not work again.  Maybe there was interference from a neighbor, but the nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away.

If anyone has any ideas, I would love to know them.  Thank you again to all that have replied in the past.

That is strange.  This past summer I also had one wall switch that became intermittant and then all of a sudden corrected itself.  It would usually turn off, but would almost never turn on and would sometimes turn on all by itself in the middle of the night. 

I don't know what caused this but one guess I have is that Ottawa Hydro (my local utility) is trialling thermostats that they can remotely control to increase the indoor temperature by a couple degrees when they are running out of electricity.  I don't know how they are controlling them, but it might be a powerline signal that interferes with X10.  I don't have one of these thermostats, but the signal would probably be broadcast throughout the city.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 16, 2006, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: krisbee on October 16, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
It's been awhile since I updated you on this problem.. mostly because it fixed itself[/b].  Really.  Nothing was changed[/b]...

Nothing that *YOU* are aware of changed. But, believe me, SOMETHING changed. ;)

Quote from: krisbee on October 16, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
If anyone has any ideas, I would love to know them.

Quote from: TakeTheActive Boilerplate Response
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT
ACT X-10 Troubleshooting Flowchart (courtesy of 'Uncle' Phil Kingery) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57828#msg57828)

Locating and Filtering SIGNAL SUCKERS Using the ELK ESM-1 (courtesy of Jeff Volp) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10187.msg58732#msg58732)

{WiKi} Phase Coupling  (courtesy of Roger H.) (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling)

I understand that most users don't want to hear this but
[/size]to have a reliable X10 System requires a substantial upfront investment in time and effort
  • Did you [/size]MAP out all of your circuits? Are the problems on DIFFERENT phases?
    .
  • What signal strength does the [/size]ELK ESM1 X-10® Signal Meter (http://www.elkproducts.com/products/esm1.htm) show / MEASURE[/b] on the "problem " circuits / switches / outlets?
    .
  • How many FILTERS do you have installed to [/size]CORRECT any of the "problems " that you uncovered?

Follow the recommendations in my FAQs / Sig Link and you should be able to reach a solution...
[/size]
;)
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: WillyS on October 17, 2006, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: krisbee on May 08, 2006, 10:53:06 AM
Hello there,

I have two wall switches that worked for several years, and then all of a sudden, they wouldn't respond to lights on command, only lights off... then, after a few weeks, they won't respond to any remote commands.  What happened?
What can I do?  Getting pretty frustrated...
Thanks in advance,
Kris

Here we go again!
Dude, if I have to tell you this again, I think I'm going to puke. Here goes (again!)... LET ME SAY IT A LITTLE LOUDER THIS TIME!!...

YOUR WALL $WITCHE$ ARE DEAD - BUY NEW ONE$, OK? THE X10 EQUIPMENT ISN'T EXACTLY "QUALITY STUFF". Either move to INSTEON or STOP CRYING!

Regards.

Will



Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: krisbee on October 17, 2006, 02:02:03 PM
Quote
Dude, if I have to tell you this again, I think I'm going to puke. Here goes (again!)... LET ME SAY IT A LITTLE LOUDER THIS TIME!!...

I am not sure you are really referring to me, because you never did actually tell me in this, or any post, your advice.

However, When I had the original problem, the first thing I did was go out and purchase new switches and install, to no avail.  It is a signal receiving problem, to be sure.

Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 17, 2006, 04:40:33 PM
Don't pay any attention to WillyS - he's only interested in bitching about X-10 for reasons he's yet to explain.

I've got 13 WS467 wall switches installed, 10 of which have been operated daily under X10 control for the last 9 years.  During that time I've had ONE unit fail (out of the thirteen), and that after about 8 years.

Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: Puck on October 17, 2006, 06:23:36 PM
Quote from: Charles Sullivan on October 17, 2006, 04:40:33 PM
I've got 13 WS467 wall switches installed, 10 of which have been operated daily under X10 control for the last 9 years.  During that time I've had ONE unit fail (out of the thirteen), and that after about 8 years.

Based on Charles' 10 switches that were running 24/7 for 8 years until his first failure occurred he's experiencing an empirical MTBF of 700,800 Hours.
No reliability concerns there  ;)  :)
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: KDR on October 17, 2006, 08:28:22 PM
Two things I'm wondering about. Just so I understand how your old 3-ways were wired... In each switch box how many sets of wires are in them. There is more then one way to power up a 3way setup and maybe knowing what wire sets you have might help explain that. The other thought I had is have you changed light bulbs in the fixtures prior to having problems? Increase wattage, decrease wattage? Anything like that. Depending on how power is introduced into the old 3way setup your switches may be getting power after the load. If the bulbs are old and a bit dimmer the resistance may have gone up blocking signal to the switches or attenuating it.  Its just a shot in the dark but nothing else has worked so far. Maybe if theres more then one bulb being switched, unscrew all but one and retest the system.

Below is a print showing 2 ways to power up a 3-way.  The top print is used generally when someone is trying to save money on wire. In my area it is no longer acceptable code to wire it this way for safety reasons.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/3wayswitch.gif)
StevenR's way as show above.
Title: Re: Wall Switches Stopped working!
Post by: steven r on October 18, 2006, 10:58:06 AM
Quote from: KDR on October 17, 2006, 08:28:22 PM
...Below is a print showing 2 ways to power up a 3-way.  The top print is used generally when someone is trying to save money on wire. In my area it is no longer acceptable code to wire it this way for safety reasons.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/3wayswitch.gif)
StevenR's way as show above.
Thanks for redoing the drawing for everyone.
I'm jealous of all you people that have places to have image links.  ;)