X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: jatracy on May 12, 2006, 03:40:04 PM
-
Call me craxy, but I want to be able to keep my decorator wall switches in place after using one of the X10 Pro Decorator modules. What I want to do is set up a circuit that will turn on/off with the standard wall switch and also be controllable through AHP. Here is my first crack at it:
put 1 WS467 in parallel with the standard wall switch and add a second WS467 like you would an in-line module(see picture).
This would obviously not fit in a standard gang box.
In this configuration WS467(2) would switch on when the switch is thrown because of the "local control" feature. The question I have is: Is there a problem with shorting across the blue and black wires on WS467(1) when the switch is thrown?
I have found some schematics for a WS467 and I was very concerned about shorting across the transformer, but upon further inspection, it appears as though there would be no current flow through the transformer. I guess I could just rig up a test fixture and try it (with a fire extinguisher or garden hose handy in my back yard). It probably wouldn't be as bad as this http://www.bestofgooglevideo.com/video.php?video=251
-
WS467 doesn't have Local Control as far as I have ever seen. Also with two in series. Each steals power through the light so if bot are in the circuit. There will be two switch drops to the light. It maybe slightly dimmer than normal. I don't think shorting the switch 1 will do anything bad to it.
-
I guess you could just use a lamp or appliance module to get the local control.
You could also have switch 1 drive the light directly.
The challenge will be to put all this in one box and connect it as I would an in line module (which would require running additional feeds to the gang box).
-
Maybe ok. Remember the differences between a Lamp and Appliance Module. Appliance remains in the state it was in if power is removed. A lamp module is always off when power is applied after being removed. So if an appliance module was on when the power was removed it will still be on when the power is applied. A lamp module will be off even if on when the power was removed.
-
More thoughts. Most likely will not work.
WS467 steals power from the load so it will probably not working #1 position as stealing power through an appliance module may not be enough.
WS467 is a dimming device and should never be used for controlling another dimming device like a lamp module or another WS467 in #2 position.
Have you thought of using the X10 or X10Pro Relay type modules?
-
One of the most appealing aspects of using X10 is the ability to dim the lights. Relay modules do not have that function.
If WS467(1) was moved to the other side of WS467(2), then they would not have to interact with each other. The actual implementation of this would not be easy though as it would require running wires to/from the switch that is already installed.
The main reason I do not like the in line modules (XPDF, XPFM) is that the light switch would have to be left on in order for them to be able to control the lights. Although my kids do enjoy leaving lights on, invariably, someone would turn the switch off. There is only one circumstance that I can think of that would not make this completely transparent and that is when the in line module had the lights off and someone wanted to turn the lights on with the switch. It would require flipping the switch off and then back on to get the local control to kick in. At least I could always make sure the lights were off though.
Also, the WS467s are also a lot cheaper!
I, also, do not understand how function of the XPDF differs from the function of the XPD3 (I know that one is a switch replacement and one is an in line module, but it appears to me that function identically).
-
No two WS467s should be used to control each other. Connecting two dimmers to each other is not good.
Three wire modules with a neutral don't have to steal the power through the load, but still no dimmer controlling another dimmers power.
-
Take your decorator wall swicth apart and stick a spring under the top of the
toggle paddle so it becomes a "momentary on" switch (ie. you push the top
it turns "on" then springs back to "off" when you let go).
Take your WS467 apart, remove the pushbutton section, and solder a couple
of wires to the pushbutton pads.
Put the WS467 in a "deep box" out of sight like an inline module. Wire the
WS467 to the light. Wire the decorator switch to the new wires from the
WS467 pushbutton section.
Your decorator switch now works as the pushbutton for the WS467 local on/off
control. Dimming available by remote only unless you also modify the WS467 for
local dimming while you have it open.
Gerald
-
No two WS467s should be used to control each other. Connecting two dimmers to each other is not good.
Three wire modules with a neutral don't have to steal the power through the load, but still no dimmer controlling another dimmers power.
The 2 WS467s would be in parallel.
-
No two WS467s should be used to control each other. Connecting two dimmers to each other is not good.
Three wire modules with a neutral don't have to steal the power through the load, but still no dimmer controlling another dimmers power.
The 2 WS467s would be in parallel.
Your diagram has them in series which for the mentioned reasons won't work. I have no idea what will happen if you do put them in parallel but keep in mind...
RT=(R1XR2)/(R1+R2) ; Where R1 and R2 are the resistance values of switches 1 and 2 respectively and RT is the total resistance.
Which basically means you half the resistance by putting them in parallel. Things may get even more screwy if you try to dim them.
BTW... How does X10 dim and brighten by resistance or by adjusting the AC wave output?
-
Dimming is achieved by the duty cycle of the Triac.
-
OK, here is an updated diagram.
With the goal being completely transparent (cosmetically) to the other people in the house, how would you guys suggest implementing a light control that can dim and still use local control?
I have toyed with the following ideas:
- using wireless switches and an in line module (ugly but easy).
- using a combination of modules like the current diagram shows (transparent but difficult to connect).
- modifying the diagram to move the relay type module in front of both the standard and WS467 - second diagram (transparent, a little easier to connect)
- using the 2384 SwitchLinc module (expensive considering I need about 30 of these to do my entire house).
Side note: yesterday I went out to the garage and the lights that are controlled with a XPD3 were repetively ramping up and down because the switch was stuck. Apparently, someone had pushed too hard and the rocker was wedged into the housing. This is the first time that something like this has happened but it illistrates the necessity to use standard switches at the standard user interface.
-
Call me craxy, but I want to be able to keep my decorator wall switches in place after using one of the X10 Pro Decorator modules. What I want to do is set up a circuit that will turn on/off with the standard wall switch and also be controllable through AHP. Here is my first crack at it:
You are craxy! (You told me to say it ;))
Seriously though, why are you wanting to use you existing decorator wall switch? Why can't you use a 3-way switch? Are you wanting to be able to disable the X10 switch with the existing switch? Knowing more details of exactly what you want to do and what your limiting factors are would help.
-
phorce1 suggestions seams like the closest to doing what you want to do. I have to agree with roger1818, however, when he said "why are you wanting to use you existing decorator wall switch?"
-
It is not that I necessarily need to use the existing wall switch. I just do not care for the quality of the XPD3 and I have already had a problem with it. I have a wife and kids and I do not want to force them to learn how to turn on/off the lights and, considering that I don't like the quality of the switch in the first place, I don't think that they would like it either.
Basically, I expected higher quality. I have already posted the first problem I have had. I am seriously considering the 2384W SWITCHLINC. Has anyone had any experiences with that particular switch?
-
It is not that I necessarily need to use the existing wall switch. I just do not care for the quality of the XPD3 and I have already had a problem with it. I have a wife and kids and I do not want to force them to learn how to turn on/off the lights and, considering that I don't like the quality of the switch in the first place, I don't think that they would like it either.
Ya. This is a common complaint. If you want a better feel, go for a third party switch.
Basically, I expected higher quality. I have already posted the first problem I have had. I am seriously considering the 2384W SWITCHLINC. Has anyone had any experiences with that particular switch?
I haven't used it, but have used its ToggleLinc equivalent and find it works very well. My only complaint is that if you tap it too quickly, it doesn't respond. I would also look at the 2876DB ICON Dimmer. It has most of the same features as the 2384 plus Insteon capability for $5 less. The main disadvantage is it is only rated for 300W.
-
I haven't used it, but have used its ToggleLinc equivalent and find it works very well. My only complaint is that if you tap it too quickly, it doesn't respond. I would also look at the 2876DB ICON Dimmer. It has most of the same features as the 2384 plus Insteon capability for $5 less. The main disadvantage is it is only rated for 300W.
Is the 2876DB ICON Dimmer an X10 compatable device? It claims to be INSTEON which according to my understanding (as limited as it is) is not X10.
-
Is the 2876DB ICON Dimmer an X10 compatable device? It claims to be INSTEON which according to my understanding (as limited as it is) is not X10.
Yes. INSTEON is fully forwards and backwards compatible with X10. In other words it will both transmit and receive X10 commands in addition to INSTEON commands.
-
The Icon versions do not do X10 Scenes, but will accept an X10 primary address. My mixture of X10; Insteon and Icon are all running in X10 mode. With X10 remotes and Transceivers.
-
Cool, these switches support the resume dim function (meaning that they do not turn on at full brightness, then dim) right?
But, according to my very limited understanding (again), AHP does not support that functionality, right?
Thanks for all your help, I am really trying to decide if I am going to stay with X10 and AHP or jump ship to Homeseer and use whatever combination of protocols I need.
-
Cool, these switches support the resume dim function (meaning that they do not turn on at full brightness, then dim) right?
I believe these switches support all of the following features:
Fade On/Off (although the fade rate is fixed at 0.1s which is almost instant):
- ramp up to desired brightness without going to 100%
Pre-set Dim
- command to tell the module how bright to be
Default On Level (programable)
- brightness for the module to become when it receives an on command.
Resume Dim
- return to the brightness the module was at when previously on (used instead of Default On Level).
But, according to my very limited understanding (again), AHP does not support that functionality, right?
It is the old Pre-set Dim comand that AHP doesn't support (yet?). If you can live with the default on level, then you can define the module as an appliance module in AHP so that it will send an on command instead of bright and dim commands. If you want, you can also define a lamp module at the same address so that you can also adjust the brightness in software using the bright and dim commands.
-
It is the old Pre-set Dim comand that AHP doesn't support (yet?). If you can live with the default on level, then you can define the module as an appliance module in AHP so that it will send an on command instead of bright and dim commands. If you want, you can also define a lamp module at the same address so that you can also adjust the brightness in software using the bright and dim commands.
So if I send the command for one of these modules to go to 50% brightness, then they will NOT go full on first?
Also, how do you get AHP to set a module to 0% brightness? I tried to do that in a macro, but it kept going to OFF.
Thanks for all your help!
-
So if I send the command for one of these modules to go to 50% brightness, then they will NOT go full on first?
Yes and No. If you set the default on level to 50% and then send and "ON" command (by defining the module as an appliance module), the module will go on to 50%. However, if you define the module as lamp module and tell it to go to 50% (absolute), AHP will tell it to go to 100% first and then back down to 50%. With the module configured like this, you could get other brightnesses by sending an "ON" (or "OFF") command and then sending the appropriate relative "BRIGHT" or "DIM" commands to get the appropriate brightness (i.e. to get 75% send "ON" then "BRIGHT" 25%). Not as good as using a Pre-set Dim, but better than going to 100% first.
Also, how do you get AHP to set a module to 0% brightness? I tried to do that in a macro, but it kept going to OFF.
In a macro, tell the module to dim by 99% (you will notice there are 3 buttons called absolute, dim and bright). I wish they added a 4th button (called on/off?) which would send an on or off command without any bright or dim commands and have absolute 0% dim the module instead of turning it off.
-
What happens if you send 2 consecutive relative dim commands that would result in a value <= 0? I.E. current brightness is 50%, send dim 25% then send another dim 25%.
-
What happens if you send 2 consecutive relative dim commands that would result in a value <= 0? I.E. current brightness is 50%, send dim 25% then send another dim 25%.
The light would be almost off (brightness level 0). The same thing would happen if you sent one large relative dim command.
-
What happens if you send 2 consecutive relative dim commands that would result in a value <= 0? I.E. current brightness is 50%, send dim 25% then send another dim 25%.
The light would be almost off (brightness level 0). The same thing would happen if you sent one large relative dim command.
So it wouldn't be 25% of 25% of 50%. It's subtracting 25% of 100% from the current level of brightness not 25% of the current level of brightness. Right?
-
So it wouldn't be 25% of 25% of 50%. It's subtracting 25% of 100% from the current level of brightness not 25% of the current level of brightness. Right?
I believe you are correct but I am planning on checking it out tonight as well as what happens when you dim past 0%. I.E. absolute dim to 50%, relative dim 60% (resulting in -10%). Hopefully I don't create a black hole in the universe, but I just can't help it, my curiosity is killing me! I am also interested in finding out the actual brightness of the lamp when the module is set to 0%. I was able to set it to 1% and the lamp was barely on at that setting.
-
So it wouldn't be 25% of 25% of 50%. It's subtracting 25% of 100% from the current level of brightness not 25% of the current level of brightness. Right?
Correct. It is a subtraction not a multiplication.