X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: amigamax on June 22, 2006, 04:45:01 PM
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I would like to get a comment from a few people about the success or lack of it
using LED light bulbs with X10 modules. ??? There may be some issues but maybe less
than florescent as I expect they both (LED & X10) incorporate switching vs old sine wave,
and have heard of current bleeding showing up in LEDs, but I will understand as I continue
to read the theories on this stuff. I have both 35 & 60 LED light bulbs I may try to use.
I am looking for a brief "what to expect" for non techies, but welcome technical
comments or explanations as well. Also may try controlling a DC powered AC inverter
outside over wireless, though I may have to get creative. I am just beginning with this stuff.
My stuff isn't even here yet.
Thanks in advance ;)
Gizmo
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1. As to LED's, if they are rated for house current (120volts) or run off a transfromer they will work with X10, particarly with appliance modules. which don't dim. I would not recommend lamp modules with LED's due to the dimming feature.
1. You cannot use CFL's with Lamp Modules unless they are non-dimming. CFL's sod by mass marketers are all labled "not to be used in dimmer circuits.
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Other than dimming I don't think you would have a problem. I put up LED Christmas lights last year and don't recall a problem.
Do your LED bulbs screw into a standard bulb socket? If so, I'd recommend controlling them with socket rockets.
I'd replace my flood lights with LED bulbs if it wasn't such a chunk of cash to buy each bulb. My floods like to come on almost every time a bug goes by. It would be nice to know that they weren't using so much energy.
As a side note I'm a real advocate of LED lights. eg How many bulbs are in a LED street light? Would you believe 200 for each color? Yeah I counted them.
I also collect LED flashlights. I currently have lost count of how many I have.
The latest one I'm drooling over put haven't justified the cost is here. (http://www.photonlight.com/products/proton/index.html?source=Newsletter)
It got a 5 star rating (the highest) from the LED museum. Click here (http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/sixth/proton.htm) for that review.
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...Also may try controlling a DC powered AC inverter...
I wouldn't recommend it. It didn't work for me. My transceiver box started getting hot almost the minute I plugged it in to the inverted AC supply. May it wasn't a true enough sine wave to make X10 happy. ;)
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Dan:
Thx for the info. Yes, the LED lamps I have are designed for 110VAC.
I just bought 2 more 18 LED units on ebay. They won't put out much light,
but for my application I do not care, and they were cheap.
CFL (compact florescent lighting - screw in florescent lamps) was a foreign term to me,
despite the fact that I have more than 5 of them in my house. I would expect
those type of lamps to flash erratically and destroy the starter circuit in them
within a few minutes if used with a dimmer circuit, unless the particular lamp
had additional circuitry; i.e. was designed for dimming. I tried one in my front
porch motion sensor once. It went nuts. I guess my front porch light uses pulsed
switching.
Steven:
Thx for your experience. I have a 60 LED lamp, and I'm not sure it would be
equivalent as a flood light. My application is only see just enough not to trip.
You probably won't get the same amount of light with LEDS unless you have well
over 100 of them. Checked out the sites. I will consider installing 2 inverted
capacitors across the AC leads to smooth the wave if I employ controlling remotely.
I may just stick to solar & DC - would be better for solar powered anyhow.
Thanks for the info guys.
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Well the finding is that LED lamp style bulbs may have a tendency to stay partially lit in most X10 modules.
In my dimming wall switch module with an 18 LED lamp is 30% lit (intensity) when off, and 100% intensity when on. In other words, I can't turn the light off unless I flip the module cutoff lever manually on the switch. This shuts off the module alltogether.
My appliance module, AM486, which I was hoping would be the solution, bleeds light when off as well. All 60 LEDs in my spotlight LED bulb were dimly lit (15%) when the appliance module (Polarized 2 pin) is off, and blinds me when it comes on. The 18 LED and 35 LED Dome type LED modules behaved the same. My experience is that it appears the more LEDs, the dimmer each LED is when the module is off. The 18 LED bulb was about 30% lit when off. I also noted my NEON design bulb (Red heart w/arrow) would blink when the module was off. Not enough to color the whole tube when cold, but colored the whole tube when warm. Not bright intensity though, but enough to ignite the gas. It appears there is a capacitor in the LED bulbs removes the pulsing effect seen in the Neon & CFL lamps, which also keeps some of the LEDs dimly lit even after removing the bulb from the socket for a few moments.
TM751: transceiver module (with the antenna) emits light from LEDs when off.
Behaves like appliance module.
LM465 dimming Lamp module: My CFL actually did blink - I hadn't noticed it until recently.
The LED bulbs are dimly lit when it is off. There is not much difference between the higher % intensities of the dimmer modules, but after a few dim commands, it does work. The 1st 3 dimm commands on my 60 LED spotlamp are barely noticeable, the 4th-6th are noticeable.
I can't tell when it reaches 0% or off because the bulb never goes out. The intensity levels are not consistant per dimming keypress. In the middle intensities there is some slightly noticeable flicker
Solution: Socket rockets seem to be the answer here, despite having the additional hassle
of programming them. The rockets shut the LEDs all the way off.
I used a TM751 RF transciever and learning remote to program mine. Set TM751 to house code of choice for your rocket, program the remote in advance for rocket house & unit code, plug in the lamp already turned on, and send the light on command repeatedly from the remote as if it was already programmed. This must be done in the 1st 30 seconds after the rocket first receives power. Rockets are set to A1 out of the box. Recommend programming rocket with incandescent bulb. 40W+ as per documentation+
We'll see if I have any problems with them...
Gizmo
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The 2 wire dimming switches steal their power from a small current through the load. That is why the LEDs light with that type switch.
Appliance modules use a local sensing current for local control. This also keeps the LEDs partially light. there are hacks for that problem. Also other brand of Appliance Modules use a much smaller current an your LEDs may or may not be almost off with them.
The socket rocket is what I have with a few CFLs with no problems, though as it uses a triac control element and not a mechanical switch. Some LEDs or CFLs could have a problem depending on brand and type.
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Is there an index or collection of these hacks?
I would like to use 2 LED lamps with an appliance module on my entertainment center.
Also is there posted anywhere how much current the modules use?
thanks!
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...I would like to use 2 LED lamps with an appliance module on my entertainment center....
If that's all you need to do right now, you might want to try plugging in a small night light with the LED lamps. I've used that trick when I've needed to control some items. A plug in air freshener, particularly one of the new fan ones, might work also. Then you wouldn't need to hide the night light. Of course you would need to pick a pleasing fragrance which can be a challenge.
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Super old thread, but I can confirm that Jan 2016 CREE LED bulbs don't work with my X10 dimmer, but Phillips LED bulbs do.
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FWIW, I have Energetic Lighting BR30 dimmable LEDs that work flawlessly, from full bright down to barely a candle.
I also have Hyperion BR40 LEDs that work very well. They don't go down to a candle, probably down to 30% but for the rooms they're in it's fine since I don't need mood lighting in the kitchen or breakfast nook. They are all controlled by WS13A dimmer switches.
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FWIW, I have Energetic Lighting BR30 dimmable LEDs that work flawlessly,
Are the Energetics a store brand? Better question: where do you get them.
Thanks
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Searching for and getting a good price on LED bulbs could be a full time job. I refuse to pay so much for the bulbs that it becomes financially stupid to replace the existing incandescent bulbs.
The BR30s I bought at Woot.com. I check woot everyday since things pop up all the time. Woot is owned by Amazon.
http://tools.woot.com/offers/energetic-lighting-br30-12w-dim-4-pack
also
http://tools.woot.com/offers/4-250-watt-equivalent-led-shop-light-9
Amazon has great pricing at times. I watched four BR40 bulbs go from $54.80 for four to $69.89 for the same four over a two week period and then right back down.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=energetic+lighting+led
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RMK05Y2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01
So far I have about 24 BR40s (dimmable), 12 BR30s (dimmable), 2 - 48 inch shop lights, about a dozen plain old bulbs (dimmable) and 8 PAR38s (dimmable)
watch the color temperature! 3000k ideal for inside IMO. 2700k is more like mood lighting color regardless of the brightness and 4000k is interrogation quality as far as I'm concerned.
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My entire home, inside and out, is all LED now. The only issues I had were with low wattage LEDs on the lamp control modules-- they flicker when off. Most of the time, you need a module with a relay. I have a few XPFM modules that have a relay, but will flicker the lamp if under 2W.
I've tried just about every LED out there and the best that I've used so far are the CREE branded ones and also Home Depot's house brand (Ecosmart).
A lot of the junk on Amazon and eBay are not even UL/CE approved. Stay away from the "corn lights" that you see everywhere!
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Stay away from the "corn lights" that you see everywhere!
Several years ago I converted all our landscape lighting over to LED. Due the shape of the fixtures, the 12V "corn lights" were the best option to replace the bare 20W incandescent bulbs. All are still working fine. They are on the other side of a big 60Hz transformer, so that would be blocking any noise they might be generating.
About two years ago we also replaced all our aging CFL ceiling lights with the Feit PAR30 and BR30 LED lights sold by Costco. They are bright, have a pleasing color, and generate no noise as measured on the XTBM. All are still fine too. The only downside is that they will not work an a 2-wire dimmer switch.
Jeff
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Costco sells 2 versions of the Feit LED PAR30 bulb. One is a 5000K and the other is 3200K (from memory). The lower color one is noticeably cheaper, but I don't know what the light quality is for the different versions. Does anyone have an opinion on whether 3200K is good for a living/TV room? I just replaced a burned out incandescent last night in one of these fixtures and dropped the ladder. I'm tired of dealing with this location and LED would solve it once and for all (I hope).
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5000k is stark white almost bluish. I use 2700k in the "living" areas as it is a soft pleasing light and 3000k in the kitchen where I like it bright.
Do a google image search for "color temperature chart".
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3200K is about the same color as a 100W incandescent. A halogen bulb will be about 3600K if that is any help.
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Reviews for the ones at Costco don't look too promising. I'm not sure if these are the same as what users here have tried, but it looks like there are possible issues with dimming, life span, and FM interference. I can get them for ~$2/bulb (the same as my incandescent) but other than those burning out somewhat frequently (they last ~1-2 years), I have had no issues. I think I'll keep using the incandescent bulbs until they run out and look again.
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Depending on the bulb source, LED bulbs are closing in on the price of incandescent bulbs. Fortunately, the power consumption is nowhere near the incandescent equivalent. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to figure out which ones are the good ones. I've had one LED failure (sheer luck I fear) in my house over the last 18 months (+/-50 bulbs) and the supplier sent me two as replacement for the one failure. Energetic Lighting and Hyperikon stand out as superior but I'm sure there are many other top names.
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I'm not sure if these are the same as what users here have tried, but it looks like there are possible issues with dimming, life span, and FM interference.
The Feit PAR30 and BR30 LED bulbs we bought were about $17 each a couple of years ago. All are still running fine, and I have noticed no interference on anything. A set of 3 on a 2-wire dimmer switch didn't work until I put one incandescent back.
Jeff
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I found that Sylvania LED9BR30/DIM/827/10YV floodlights [dimmable] work just great with an X10 lamp module but when I decided to try them in fixtures connected to an X10 wall switch module, they don't work well at all! The don't dim all the way down like they do with the lamp module, and once turned on they won't shut off with the remote.
I suspect this has something to do with the wall switch module being wired in series with the fixtures, while the lamp module provides dimming current to both prongs of the lamp attached to it.
Does anybody have a fix for this problem?
Thanks,
Ron
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Your suspicions are correct.
The two wire X10 Dimmer Switches. Get their power through the load and are made for incandescent bulbs only.
The Lamp Modules get their power from the Line and Neutral AC input on the back side. So they do not have to steal power through the Load. Many dimmable LED bulbs will work. Though not all of them will. Trial and error sometimes has to be used to find ones that work.
Do you have a Neutral Power connection in the X10 switch boxes?
I have seen modifications to add a Neutral Power connection to them.
I have seen a post saying dimmable LEDs where working.
Another way maybe leaving one old incandescent bulb in the circuit.
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FWIW, I have an older X10 dimmer without a neutral. It powers four BR40 Hyperion LED bulbs that work almost perfectly. No flickering, 100% brightness and nothing on when off. The only downside is they really only dim to about 30%, not a true down to a candle brightness. I can easily live with that shortcoming since it's a room that should never be really dim anyways.