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[Just Another Joe]

Helllo All.  Long time X-10 user, but not with the security products until now.  Starting out with MS10A motion sensors and DS10A door/window sensors, in conjunction with a V572RF32, and have some questions:

1.  The MS10A, unlike the other X-10 motion sensors, seems not to send an 'Off' code after motion has ceased (it does not send any code when motion has ceased), but rather seems to send alternate 'On' and 'Off' codes on every motion sense.  Is that correct?

2.  The instructions say the MS10A has a lock-out time of 45 seconds, whereas the other X-10 motion sensors have a lock-out time of ten seconds; that is, the time from one transmission until the next transmission may occur, even if there is intervening motion.  While I have found the other sensors to have that approximate ten second lock-out time, the MS10A seems to send transmissions as close together as five or six seconds, according to my log.  Is that accurate?

3.  The MS10A and DS10A have a low-battery bit, but the V572RF32 is unable to convey that information, correct?

4.  Both the MS10A and DS10A have a 'heartbeat' or 'keep-alive' transmission, with the DS10A's signal being at one hour intervals, and the MS10A's signal at 90 minute intervals.  In either case, the heartbeat signal sent (closed/open, or off/on when translated to standard X-10 signals by the V572RF32), should be the same as the most recent previous transmission.  So if the door/window is closed, the last normal transmission should have been a closed, and therefore any following heartbeat signals should be closed, while if the door/window is open, the last normal transmission would have been an open, and therefore any following heatbeat signals should also be open.  Is that all correct so far?

4a.  According to my log, when I installed batteries in the DS10A and registered it with the V572RF32 and then tested the contacts, it sent On, Off, On, Off as I brought the contacts together, apart, together, and apart respectively.  At that point I changed the V572RF32 control for this device from closed=on/open=off to closed=off/open=on.  After that, the log shows consecutive On commands at approximately one hour intervals (ranging roughly from 62 minutes to 65 minutes).  Being that the last normal transmission (contacts apart) was an Off (representing open), and then the V572RF32 control was changed, and the heartbeats were then On (now representing open), this seems to bear out 4. above with regards to the DS10A.  Does that make sense?

4b.  Unfortunately, the MS10A case in 4. above is not so clear.  According to my logs, the last normal transmission was an Off, and 112 minutes later there was an On (open) which I believe was the first heartbeat.  Consecutive On heartbeats followed at approximately 93/94 minute intervals.  So what happened here?  Was there a normal On transmission roughly 90 minutes before the heartbeats started, which for some reason wasn't recorded in the log?  Or does the MS10A always send an Open for a heartbeat?  Or something else?

5.  There is on this site an excellent colour chart comparing the various regular X-10 motion sensors, but it does not include the MS10A security motion sensor.  Some of the differences have been mentioned above, but does anyone have any information about how the MS10A compares to the other motions in other ways, such as narrower/wider/longer/shorter field of view, sensitivity, etc.?  Which yields better results for normal automation/lighting control, and why?

Thanks for reading this admittedly rather long post.

[Puck]

1.  The MS10A, unlike the other X-10 motion sensors, seems not to send an 'Off' code after motion has ceased (it does not send any code when motion has ceased), but rather seems to send alternate 'On' and 'Off' codes on every motion sense.  Is that correct?

I haven't used mine in a long time, but I do recall the MS10A does sends a no motion signal a few seconds after the motion detect signal.

3.  The MS10A and DS10A have a low-battery bit, but the V572RF32 is unable to convey that information, correct?

All security bits are lost in the translation through the V572RF32. Only standard X10 PLC signals get sent out of it.

4.  Both the MS10A and DS10A have a 'heartbeat' or 'keep-alive' transmission, with the DS10A's signal being at one hour intervals, and the MS10A's signal at 90 minute intervals.  In either case, the heartbeat signal sent (closed/open, or off/on when translated to standard X-10 signals by the V572RF32), should be the same as the most recent previous transmission.  So if the door/window is closed, the last normal transmission should have been a closed, and therefore any following heartbeat signals should be closed, while if the door/window is open, the last normal transmission would have been an open, and therefore any following heatbeat signals should also be open.  Is that all correct so far?

Correct.

4a.  According to my log, when I installed batteries in the DS10A and registered it with the V572RF32 and then tested the contacts, it sent On, Off, On, Off as I brought the contacts together, apart, together, and apart respectively.  At that point I changed the V572RF32 control for this device from closed=on/open=off to closed=off/open=on.  After that, the log shows consecutive On commands at approximately one hour intervals (ranging roughly from 62 minutes to 65 minutes).  Being that the last normal transmission (contacts apart) was an Off (representing open), and then the V572RF32 control was changed, and the heartbeats were then On (now representing open), this seems to bear out 4. above with regards to the DS10A.  Does that make sense?

#4 is correct; any difference seen will most likely be from how the V572RF32 is set up. I have experienced odd behavior when I tried to change states of received signals with my V572RF32; I found the unit to be stable, but not always translate to the state I choose. Particularly in the second group; no matter which command option I choose, it would always send the same PLC signal.

4b.  Unfortunately, the MS10A case in 4. above is not so clear.  According to my logs, the last normal transmission was an Off, and 112 minutes later there was an On (open) which I believe was the first heartbeat.  Consecutive On heartbeats followed at approximately 93/94 minute intervals.  So what happened here?  Was there a normal On transmission roughly 90 minutes before the heartbeats started, which for some reason wasn't recorded in the log?  Or does the MS10A always send an Open for a heartbeat?  Or something else?

Again, I would suspect the V573RF32 translation.

[Just Another Joe]

Hi Puck; thanks so much for the reply.

1.  The MS10A, unlike the other X-10 motion sensors, seems not to send an 'Off' code after motion has ceased (it does not send any code when motion has ceased), but rather seems to send alternate 'On' and 'Off' codes on every motion sense.  Is that correct?

I haven't used mine in a long time, but I do recall the MS10A does sends a no motion signal a few seconds after the motion detect signal.

Yes, upon closer investigation, I believe you are correct.  At first look in the log, it seemed as though the MS10A was sending alternate On and Off commands to continuous motion.  But closer testing with a single motion sense at a time, shows that it sends the Off command upon motion, and then sends an On command 10 seconds later (the order depends on the V572RF32 setting), regardless of whether there is further motion.  I wouldn't think of this as a 'motion ceased' command, but simply as a paired command as a result of a single motion detection, and every detection will initiate this pair of commands.

The 90 minute heartbeat will send a single command, and it will be the same command as the second command of the pair above (again, depending on the V572RF32 setting theoretically).

4.  Both the MS10A and DS10A have a 'heartbeat' or 'keep-alive' transmission, with the DS10A's signal being at one hour intervals, and the MS10A's signal at 90 minute intervals.  In either case, the heartbeat signal sent (closed/open, or off/on when translated to standard X-10 signals by the V572RF32), should be the same as the most recent previous transmission.  So if the door/window is closed, the last normal transmission should have been a closed, and therefore any following heartbeat signals should be closed, while if the door/window is open, the last normal transmission would have been an open, and therefore any following heatbeat signals should also be open.  Is that all correct so far?

Correct.

4a.  According to my log, when I installed batteries in the DS10A and registered it with the V572RF32 and then tested the contacts, it sent On, Off, On, Off as I brought the contacts together, apart, together, and apart respectively.  At that point I changed the V572RF32 control for this device from closed=on/open=off to closed=off/open=on.  After that, the log shows consecutive On commands at approximately one hour intervals (ranging roughly from 62 minutes to 65 minutes).  Being that the last normal transmission (contacts apart) was an Off (representing open), and then the V572RF32 control was changed, and the heartbeats were then On (now representing open), this seems to bear out 4. above with regards to the DS10A.  Does that make sense?

#4 is correct; any difference seen will most likely be from how the V572RF32 is set up. I have experienced odd behavior when I tried to change states of received signals with my V572RF32; I found the unit to be stable, but not always translate to the state I choose. Particularly in the second group; no matter which command option I choose, it would always send the same PLC signal.

4b.  Unfortunately, the MS10A case in 4. above is not so clear.  According to my logs, the last normal transmission was an Off, and 112 minutes later there was an On (open) which I believe was the first heartbeat.  Consecutive On heartbeats followed at approximately 93/94 minute intervals.  So what happened here?  Was there a normal On transmission roughly 90 minutes before the heartbeats started, which for some reason wasn't recorded in the log?  Or does the MS10A always send an Open for a heartbeat?  Or something else?

Again, I would suspect the V573RF32 translation.

And again I think you are correct; I haven't been able to change to order of the motion sense pair by altering the V572RF32 setting.  Is there any workaround?

[Puck]

And again I think you are correct; I haven't been able to change to order of the motion sense pair by altering the V572RF32 setting.  Is there any workaround?

I haven't played around with it much to see if there is a work around. I use the translated signals to trigger AHP macros, so I as soon as it was stable (regardless of the on/off order) I just left it. It would be nice to reverse the order on some modules just so they make more logical sense. When I upgrade my AHP back to 3.204 and rewrite my AHX files, I may take that opportunity to play with it again.

[Just Another Joe]

And again I think you are correct; I haven't been able to change to order of the motion sense pair by altering the V572RF32 setting.  Is there any workaround?

I haven't played around with it much to see if there is a work around. I use the translated signals to trigger AHP macros, so I as soon as it was stable (regardless of the on/off order) I just left it. It would be nice to reverse the order on some modules just so they make more logical sense. When I upgrade my AHP back to 3.204 and rewrite my AHX files, I may take that opportunity to play with it again.

Okay, thanks Puck.  Like you, I think I'll just use it as is for now.  If you do make any progress, I would be interested in hearing about it.