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[x10dude]

In the process of troubleshooting an issue with one of my floodlights, I discovered that one of my filtered computers was preventing me from reaching an AM486 module. Everything I've tried leads me to believe that I have at least 3 broken XPPFs (out of a 4 pack recently purchased)

I'm a bit surprised since I thought these "pro" modules would be more resilient and when broken, it would be more obvious - like they wouldn't let electricity through, or explode, change in color, etc.

These were straight out of the box. I plugged them in, turned on the computer, and away I went. As it turned out, after trying 4 of them, 1 actually did its job. The other simply didn't do anything to block my computer noise.

I had been wondering if I had something connected to that power line inside the walls that I wasn't able to see until I decided to go through the filters.

Is it that common for these filters to be so poor in quality? Considering what I paid for them (5 dls each), it may cost me more to return them and get replacements than to simply buy new ones.

However, if this is an indication of what I'd have to deal with, I'm not sure that they're worth the effort. I thought filters were supposed to be the last line of defense to get X10 working properly.

Anyone run into this before? Here's what I've done:

* plug my laptop, which connects to my AHP machine in another room over wi-fi, to the XPPF
* in the same room, have an AM486 with an incandescent lamp (already registered with AHP)
* turn LM486 on/off through AHP

3 of these filters would not turn on/off the LM486 at all. However, if I unplugged the bad XPPFs and ran my laptop on battery, I could control the AM486 w/out a problem.

Is the minimum/maximum threshold for the XPPFs? Am I just that unlucky?

[dave w]

Could be a bad production run. X10 modules are of old design, using labor to hand insert parts. It is possible to have incorrect parts in the assembaly line parts bin, built wrong, cold solder, etc. Since it appears you are close to "writing off" the three duds, why not open one of them up to see if there is anything obvious like components unsoldered.

[x10dude]

Good points. I'm not quite ready to take them apart, but I might just resort to that.

For kicks, I decided to move some more filters around to see how they did. I now have 5 bad ones. Is it possible that there's something on the particular machine that I'm trying to filter out that can't be filtered? I find it hard to believe that all these filters just don't work. They came from different resellers too.

[JeffVolp]

The XPPF is a simple low-pass filter.  Component tolerances are not critical.  I have never seen a "bad" XPPF.  They can get warm, and begin to stink when pushed to their full rating continuously.

While it is possible that you have a bad run of filters, I think it is more likely that you have serious noise problems that are only partially being addressed.  The XPPF may be doing an adequate job of reducing noise from one particular source, but there may be other "problem" devices that also need filtering.

Also, from your post, it isn't clear whether the problem is on the powerline (where the XPPF would have an effect) or in your wi-fi network.

FYI, it would cost me almost $20 to replicate the XPPF filter (components only).  So $5 is a bargain!

Jeff

[x10dude]

hey Jeff,

My list of nonworking XPPFs just seems to grow. I hope it's what you're saying instead of what I'm dreading (that i have a bad circuit in the offending room that might be frying the filters - if that's possible.) I'm going to investigate a bit more.

As for wi-fi vs. powerline. It's the latter. I mentioned wi-fi in the context of how my laptop connects to my AHP machine, which is what sends the on/off command to the module. The laptop gets plugged (its power) to the XPPF. When I unplug the XPFF (thus running my laptop on battery), I have no issues controlling the module.

Yes, I've unplugged everything that I can see. The only thing left are the (ceiling) CFLs in this room, but these were off when I tried the above, so they shouldn't be the problem.

BTW, it seems like I just added another one to the list of nonworking filters (at least in this scenario). I'm now wondering if there's something wrong with my electrical wiring. Bill (wgjohns.com) cleverly suggested that I check the polarity, my high-end machine (may be too noisy), and my GFI powerline (it's close to the breaker for this room).

At least, I'm glad to know that it's not that easy to fry an XPPF, so I'm optimistic. Yes, 5 bucks is a bargain

[Brian H]

I also doubt you could fry one unless you put a SERIOUS over current through one.
The coils may overheat and fry.

I have seen theories that if the noise is on the Neutral return. The filters may not do too much.

  Some have used two. One connected to the next one then the load.

By chance do you have an outlet checker? On the off chance you have an outlet with a reversed Line and Neutral wire.

[JeffVolp]

OK, it sounded like the command might have been initiated by the laptop, and then relayed to the powerline by your other computer.

The problem could be something as simple as a cellphone charger.  One of those caused major problems for another X10 user:  http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.htm

You might also have a weak signal level at the "problem" module.  Even a little noise leaking onto the powerline from the laptop charger might be enough to cause the module to fail to operate correctly.

As Brian has said, some people use two XPPF filters in series.  The XPPF is a low pass filter, and it does a very good job of isolating devices that can interfere with X10 signals.  However, it will attenuate, but not totally eliminate noise.  I have plugged a X10 module into a XPPF filter, and then sent commands through a XTB.  Because the XTB signal is much stronger than a normal X10 signal, enough leaked through the filter for the module to still respond to commands.  If your laptop power supply is a particularly noisy device (as some are), then putting two filters in series may be the answer.

Jeff

[dave w]

Hey Jeff,

I it is too bad the Volp signal level meter is not shipping yet. I bet you could have sold a dozen just from this thread. 

I have written out the check, and just waiting to mail.

[JeffVolp]

Unfortunately, this is an extremely busy time of year for me.  Unlike our members of congress, I try to get my taxes correct, and that takes a LOT of time.  I'm in catch up mode, and work on new projects is on hold for now.

The hardware is working, but there is a lot of firmware still to do.  Hopefully, it will be finished by fall.

Well, back to the soldering iron...

Jeff

[x10dude]

Thanks for the all the replies and great suggestions. I just finished some more troubleshooting and have more details and conclusions, as follows:

* The electric run tied to this breaker goes to two rooms (computer & exercise rooms,) so I thought. At least, that's what the label on the circuit panel said
* It turned out that the run was used to wire the downstairs laundry room where the washer was plugged in
* Unplugging everything on the same run allows me to get to the AM486 from my AHP machine w/out a problem
* Started adding devices one by one starting with the washer. wham.. X10 signal gone!
* Added an AF120 filter to the washer - all cool again
* Plugged in my high end Dell computer in computer room - signal gone
* Added an XPPF to the computer - still no signal
* Unplugged the computer and left ONLY the XPPF plugged in - still no signal
* Removed the XPPF - all cool again
* Tried all the XPPFs that I have, with nothing on them - no signal
* Moved to the next outlet and plugged in my laptop, print-server, and laser printer (off) with XPPF - no signal
* Tried all XPPFs - no signal
* Left outlet alone - all cool again
* Moved to the other room (exercise) and connected small 15" TV with XPPF - no signal
* unplugged TV and XPPF - all cool again
* plugged in treadmill - still cool. Turned on treadmill - still alright. unplugged treadmill.
* moved AM486 to different outlets around both rooms and tried plugging in stuff again as above - same results
* went back to Dell computer and laptop outlets and tried an AF120 instead of XPPFs - no signal
* left AF120 alone with nothing plugged in - no signal

Decided to use maxi-controller in the same room as the AHP machine instead of AHP

* turned AM486 on/off from maxi controller with only washer/AF120 on the run - no problem
* plugged in high end Dell computer w/out XPPF - no signal from maxi-controller
* added XPPF to Dell computer - all cool again
* turned on dell computer - still cool
* Plugged in laptop, print-server, and laser printer (all on) on power strip with XPPF - no problem
* Removed XPPF from power strip leaving laptop, print-server, and laser printer on - no signal
* moved to next room and plugged in 15" TV w/o XPPF - no signal
* added XPPF to TV - all cool

As of now, I have the CM15a on the second outlet, so I decided to connect it to the same outlet where the maxi-controller was (using a 25' 12-gage extension cord)

* Leaving everything as is (all devices running with XPPFs on them) - all cool. I can control everything from the AHP machine

So, I've concluded the following:

* I had two major problems:

1) the washer was the main source of noise that the XPPFs couldn't filter out. Adding the AF120 helped. Jeff gets the brownie points for this one!

2) my CM15a signal was too weak to reach all of that room after adding at least one other filter. It seems that each filter was making the signal weaker. Bill (wgjohns) gets the brownie for this one. He suggested I move the CM15a as close to the first outlet (closest to the breaker) as possible

* I've decided to move my CM15a to the new outlet - most likely by using a USB extender since it would be very inconvenient to have the AHP machine where that outlet is

* My XPPFs seem to be doing their job, albeit less than what I had expected, but working nevertheless

   to all!

[trol1374]

   Least you had the patience to do a through troubleshoot, instead of just throwing your hands up and saying bad stuff.   Glad to hear you have found the major source of your problems.   Hopefully you can now get up and going.

[Brian H]

Thanks for the detailed update on your findings. Your added effort will make future X10 additions easier to do and fix if a probelm happens.

I finally got to doing a COMPLETE survey of my homes wiring and someday I believe it will be invaluable in troubleshooting a problem. I now have a chart of what breaker feeds each device and what Hot Line it is feed from.