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[frank]

I have had 10 or 12 LM465's and AM466's in the house for several years with few problems. 

A few days ago I noticed some landscape lights, connected to an LM465, were on during the day. I used an HR12A to turn them off and I noted that the lights blinked off for half a second and came back on.  I then tried two other LM465's with the same result.  The outlet in question is electrically within 15 feet of the breaker box and several other modules are farther away.  All three modules perform correctly on a different outlet.

I then unplugged a bunch of stuff in the house hoping to find something that had changed, but had no luck.  Next step will be to kill a bunch of breakers and see if I can find a cause that way.

But has anyone else seen this sort of thing happen?  I don't recall any electrical change that could have caused this.  I am wanting to simplify the troubleshooting process as much as possible.

Thanks!

[Brian H]

Are the same lights on the LM465 when tested in the different outlet?
Are the lights 120 volt incandescent or Halogen?  Not low voltage ones on a power supply or transformer, LED, CFL?

LM465 modules are not designed to control loads that are not 120 volt incandescent or halogen bulbs. Some dimmable 120 volt  LED bulbs may also work. Depending on the exact bulb models electronic driver.

Sounds like you maybe seeing the Local Control Sensing circuit. Thinking you locally toggled the load Off and back on again
Do the lights go instantly ON or ramp On and Off when controlled by an X10 command. If that ramp on and off they are new enough to be Soft Start.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Local_Control_for_Lamp_And_Appliance_Modules

Did your power company recently install a Smart Electric Meter on you home?

[frank]

Thanks for the tips...

I used a different lamp (20 watt) when testing each of the LM465's.  That outlet is not on the same breaker as the circuit on which I have the problem, but it is on the same phase.  The lights are 10 watt, 12 volt halogens running on 5 volts DC through a 110 vac power supply.  Perhaps the 5 lights total 15 to 20 watts.  But I'll run an extension cord back to the lights from the working outlet & module and see what happens.  (great tip!)

But, I also tried an AM466 appliance module in place of the LM465.  After connecting the AM466, it was off.  I turned it on with the remote.  But it would not turn off.  I unplugged it and repeated that process with the same result.

I like the idea of the Local Control Sensing Circuit.  But I don't think that would apply with the Appliance module, (which I assumed is good).  But I'll increase the load and try the LM465 again.

The test light ramps up and back down when using the LM465.  So they must be the Soft Start.

We have had a Smart electric meter for quite some time.  But why did you suggest that as an issue?

I will review the references you provided.  Very odd problem.  I will solve it and post back.  But I have to wait until the wife isn't around.  She won't be pleased that all the clocks will have to be reset.

Thanks again for your time.

[frank]

The problem is that the load is/was too low.  I plugged a 60 watt drop light into the module's (LM465) output along with the original load in the original outlet, and it works.

I then switched to the AM466.  When the 60 watt drop light is not plugged into the output, the AM466 turns on normally.  But when commanded to turn off, it only goes off for a 1/4 second before coming back on.  I didn't realize the AM466 required a minimum load to stay on.  And I didn't realize the relay output of the AM466 was sensed.

So now, it seems, I have to provide some sort of dummy load on the output of a module to keep it working properly (40 watts works.  One of the links you provided stated 7 1/2w would work).  The disadvantage of doing so is that the dummy load is going to waste power.  Maybe there is a module that does not require the minimum load.  The article mentioned cutting a diode out of the circuit.  My modules are newer than the one shown however.  I'll have to determine whether a 7 1/2 w bulb works.

So is all the result of the Local Control Sensing Circuit as you suggested.

[Brian H]

The LM465 should not be used to control a 120 volt power supply driving 5 volt halogen bulbs.
It is not designed to drive a 120 volt AC power supply.

From your description it sounds like your AM466 modules are the newer CFL friendly models with no Local Control Sensing.
You can verify this by connecting it to a table lamp with a standard incandescent bulb in it.
With the AM466 Off and the Table Lamps local switch On.  Toggle the table lamps local switch Off then back On. If the AM466 stays Off you do not have Local Control sensing.

The LM465 should not be used with a 120 volt AC Power Supply. The 60 watt incandescent bulb calmed things down enough for it to at least work but is not a real safe thing to do.

We have seen some reports that noise spikes from loads will occasionally trigger the newer CFL Friendly AM466 and AM486 modules back On when turned Off.
The bulb you used probably killed the noise spike enough to stop it going back On.

If you can safely wire a 47,000 OHM 1/2 watt resistor across the load as a test. That could kill the spike enough to stop the back On thing. Some here used a 33,000 OHM 1 Watt for the resistor.
The 47,000 Ohm 1/2 watt resistor uses about 0.306 watts. A 33,000 Ohm 1 watt resistor uses about 0.44 watts.

[Brian H]

Why I asked about a Smart Meter.
Some model Smart Meters signals sent back to the power company. Where reported to cause strange X10 problems. Like modules going On and Off all by themselves.

[frank]

Thanks Brian.  I hadn't thought about the power meter sending an interfering signal.

I did take the AM466 apart, thinking I would unsolder the diode.  But after removing the back of the enclosure, all I had access to was the back of the CB.  It is held into the front half of the enclosure by the male AC prongs.

Then I removed the diode from an AM486 - the 2 pin appliance module.  The circuit works perfect now.

Something I am wondering about:  If these modules need a 60 watt load minimum, why would the small resistor load satisfy that requirement?  Also in lieu of the resistor load, people use an unloaded wall wart or a 7 1/2w incandescent bulb.  How is it those satisfy the load requirement?

Thanks for your guidance with this!  I've ordered two more (older?) AM466 modules, which I am hoping to modify to replace the lamp modules I am using now on a couple power supplies. 

 

[Brian H]

No Appliance Module has a 60 watt minimum load requirement.
The 60 watt bulb you used to test. Was swamping the noise or local control sensor current if it was the older type.
Lamp modules do have a minimum load requirement of 40 watts.

The older Appliance Modules with Local Control Sensing would cause some LED and CFL bulbs to flicker or turn back On. The 7 watt night light was able to swamp out the sensing voltage. Those also had the diode and jumpers that could be cut.

The newer appliance model only has a very small sensor voltage to determine if it is presently On or Off. The 33K or 47K resistor was able to stop the problem of noise sometimes sneaking back into the module. Through the On Off sensing circuit.
The newer ones have no diode or jumper to cut. As there is no Local Control sensing in them.
If you cut the one resistor used to see if it On or Off out. It then tries a few times to see if it is on or off. Sounding like a machine gun.  

I have not seen the latest hardware so it maybe different now. The AC Prongs are usually a snug fit through the case with gentle pushing on them will slide them out of the plastic case.  Prongs down pushing on a table holding the case has worked for me. One thing you have to watch is the House and Unit Code dials can fall out of the case.

[frank]

I did the table lamp test.  The AM466 stayed off when I toggled the table lamp on and off.  The date code is 09K48.

You were correct.  I took the AM466 apart again and indeed the CB came out easily.    I drilled a couple of holes in the circuit board and mounted a 1-watt 33k resistor in there across the output.  Unlike before the addition of the 33k resistor, the module does indeed stay off now with the low load across it (with no dummy load).  When I modify additional ones, I'll try the 47k instead.  I assume people have discovered that anything higher does not provide reliable operation.

Has it been determined what the actual low load limit is for lamp modules and that there is no way to circumvent that requirement?

Thanks for your help with this endeavor Brian!  It seems I'll be able to modify the two used AM466 modules I should soon receive whether they are of the new or old style.

Frank

[Brian H]

The LM465 manual says 40 watts minimum. That is probably a safe choice specification.
Some would probably work at a lower wattage others may not.
The triac used for dimming control needs a minimum current to be stable. Too low a wattage may show pulsing and flickering from too low a current flow through the load.
http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/LM465.pdf

I don't remember if anyone did tests with higher resistance across the load in the new CFL friendly appliance modules. I believe individual modules where fine with higher and others still where touchy.

Depending on what type appliance modules you get. The 33K or 47K resistors may not work on the older ones with the diode and jumper that can be cut.