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[raccah]

Hello,

I have a single circuit that powers my family room ceiling lights, ceiling fans, room outlets, and my HVAC's blower which is plugged into a outlet in the attic.  The ceiling lights and ceiling fans have X10 XPS3 switches.  The room ceiling lights have CFL bulbs.  The ceiling lights can be off and the ceiling fans can be off and the blower will kick on and turn the lights/fans on or off.  Though sometimes the lights will flip on and off and the blower is not blowing, but maybe it is powered up and down, but the blower did not turn on.  Also, the system is a multi stage system.  Finally, the real AC unit is outside and on its own 220 volt circuit.  Yes, I know this probably means that I have line noise.  I tried to put a noise filter on the blower - as it is powered by a 110 plug.  I put the noise filter (XPPF) between the blower plug and the outlet, and that did not help at all.  I have no way to isolate the blower without unplugging it.  I guess that would prove that the blower is a culprit - but what are my best approach:

• Get a separate circuit for the blower = $$
• Get a bigger/stronger noise reducer - I used an XPPF
• Rent noise checker and debug the whole system
• Any other and I hope better idea!

Any help would be great!

Thanks,
David

[raccah]

Please help!  - anyone!

Is it normal for an X10 switch to be turned on and off?  daveW in my other question thinks that this is not a common occurrence.  These are the only modules getting affected by the HVAC.  Please help!

Thanks

[EL34]

Not sure, but I had all sorts of goofy issues like that a year or so ago.

I then got serious and installed filters on every PC/battery backup, TV's, Battery charges, etc
Anything that throws out garbage onto the line got a filter.

I used 5, 10 and 20 amp filters where they were needed.

Then I added an active repeater, crossover to my main panel to get all the signals boosted up and to make sure they get from one 120v leg in the panel to the other 120v leg.

Every problem stopped and all has been great since then.

Not sure if you are having a noise issure, but big motors kicking on (like my table saw) used to turn on lights all the time before the big fix.

[raccah]

Cool!  What products did you use for 5, 10, and 20 amp?  I would need inline and plugin models.  Also what did you do for the AC unit (not the blower) that is 220, it is connected to a double circuit in the panel.

Thanks,
David

[EL34]

Oops, sorry, been away for a while.

I didn't do anything about my big motors.
I only added filters to the offending electronic devices like my home theatre (15 amp), battery chargers (5 amp), 3 different big UPS battery backups (20 amp) that I run on my computer network here.

I found out that even my bedroom humidifier sent out garbage (5 amp). Must be that transducer that atomizes the water.

Anywho, who knows why the table saw was a problem, it's not an electronic device.
It all stopped and all has been well for a year or so now.


My favorite X10 merchant is listed on my x10 page. Martin is awesome to do business with. (sheridanb5). He has all the filters at great prices and cheap shipping. He has a trouble shooting link that will take you to all the filters he stocks
The xpcr active coupler/repeater was a huge help, but I don't see it listed on martin's store anymore???

here's a link to my page.
http://www.el34world.com/Misc/home/X10_0.htm

[raccah]

So, 4 months later and the utility company has replaced the transformer that feeds our house.  Good news - no more dim/flicker behavior on big systems turning on.  Bad news - lights turning on because of HVAC blower problem described here is still happening.  So, what to research next?

[BVD]

So, 4 months later and the utility company has replaced the transformer that feeds our house.  Good news - no more dim/flicker behavior on big systems turning on.  Bad news - lights turning on because of HVAC blower problem described here is still happening.  So, what to research next?

Raccah,
I think you have answered your own question and don't know it! The question I have is do the switches actually turn ON and OFF or visa versa or just the lights? There are a couple of things that could be causing this problem.

When the power company replaced the transformer they replaced it with a larger transformer that is able to deliver a larger amount of Volt/Amps to your residence. Thus you don't have the dim/flicker problem on the big systems turning on. If they would have replaced the lead in from the pole to your house with a larger wire size it would have helped even more.

The problem I see with your setup is that you have everything on one circuit. You have two inductive loads, ceiling fan and HVAC blower, who knows what else plugged into the receptacles, as well as lights. Hopefully your home is wired with at least #12. The distance your devices are from the breaker box also matters as they are inductive and the further away the more line loss you will experience. Most motors draw a lot of current when they first start and you can get an inductive kick when the motors drop the capacitors out on a capacitor start motor or the motor switches from the start winding to the run winding in a non capacitor start motor.

Now that you have had your electric lesson for the day here are my recommendations.

Step 1. Do unplug the blower motor and see if the problem ceases. If so buy a 20 Amp in line filter, Deep Three Gang Metal switch Box with cover, a 20 Amp 3 prong plug, 20 Amp Receptacle, and some 12-2WG.

Steps for installation:

1. Cut a 3ft. piece of 12-2WG.
2. Strip back enough on one end to accommodate attaching it to the plug. Attach to Plug Observe proper wiring technique. Black - Brass colored screw, White - Silver colored screw, and Green - Green colored screw.
3. Strip other end back about 9" and feed into metal gang box. Lightly secure with clamps in box.
4. Install 20 Amp Filter. Connect Black on filter to black coming from cable. Wire Nut tightly and tape. Connect the White on the filter to the white coming from cable and add a single white wire (about 8") with the others and wire nut these three tightly and tape.
5. Now for the receptacle wiring. Take the Red from the filter and connect it to the Brass colored screw on the receptacle. Take the White wire you added in the previous step and connect it to the Silver colored screw on the receptacle. And finally connect the green wire coming from the cable to the Green Ground screw on the receptacle.
6. Secure the receptacle to the box with mounting screws. Place receptacle cover on box. (One receptacle, two blank.
7. You are done. You now have a 20 Amp in line noise filter and spike suppressor.

Unplug the blower, plug it in to your in line receptacle, plug your in line receptacle plug into the outlet the blower was plugged into.

I will supply you with a sketch upon your request.

Hope this helps.
Bob

[raccah]

I think you have answered your own question and don't know it! The question I have is do the switches actually turn ON and OFF or visa versa or just the lights? There are a couple of things that could be causing this problem. [/i]

I'm not sure I understand this question, but if you are asking whether it turns both on and off, the answer is yes, though off is slightly less frequent.

When the power company replaced the transformer they replaced it with a larger transformer that is able to deliver a larger amount of Volt/Amps to your residence. Thus you don't have the dim/flicker problem on the big systems turning on. If they would have replaced the lead in from the pole to your house with a larger wire size it would have helped even more.

Thanks for this info.  Actually, you reminded me that along the way to replacing the transformer, one of the guys who came out said we needed to have the service drop (from the pole) replaced as well.  So, I called and asked for that to happen and the head guy came out and attached his voltage tested to our meter for two days.  We got the result today - he said the voltage is fabulous and does not show any problems, so there is no need to replace that.

The problem I see with your setup is that you have everything on one circuit. You have two inductive loads, ceiling fan and HVAC blower, who knows what else plugged into the receptacles, as well as lights. Hopefully your home is wired with at least #12. The distance your devices are from the breaker box also matters as they are inductive and the further away the more line loss you will experience. Most motors draw a lot of current when they first start and you can get an inductive kick when the motors drop the capacitors out on a capacitor start motor or the motor switches from the start winding to the run winding in a non capacitor start motor.

Yes, that is definitely a problem, and this is probably the farthest point in the house from the breaker box.

Step 1. Do unplug the blower motor and see if the problem ceases. If so buy a 20 Amp in line filter, Deep Three Gang Metal switch Box with cover, a 20 Amp 3 prong plug, 20 Amp Receptacle, and some 12-2WG.

We did try this several months ago (the unplug part, not the filter), and we did not see the problem.

A few more pieces of info that might be relevant:
1) The fan switches (XPS3) have an indicator light for when the switch is on.  These are dimly lit at all times.  When the switch is turned on, they go on brighter.  We contacted the x10 folks and they said this is due to some noise on the line. The interesting part is that apparently the noise is there at all times, even when our HVAC system is off - not sure if this is a new problem or related to this one.
2) We also tried a small line filter for the HVAC blower's plug (the XPPF) but it did not help
3) This HVAC system is relatively new - we did not have this problem with our old one.  It has a AC/Heat pump that use the same blower fan settings as each other and a backup furnace which uses a different fan setting.  When on AC/Heat pump, this problem happens less frequently than when on the furnace setting, however the furnace has turned out to be our primary mechanism for running heat in the winter.  When we first started - it was like a disco in there - the lights would go on and off constantly.  We complained to the York representative and he had them install an RF type filter/cleaner and now the problem still persists, but more like once a week than several times a day.

Steps for installation:
<snip>
I will supply you with a sketch upon your request.

Hope this helps.
Bob

Thanks, we will definitely look into doing this, but we are not electricians, so just so we understand  .... this is a set of instructions for a more hefty version of the XPPF functionality to be wired inline to our blower's plug, right?  So, you don't think we need to have a separate dedicated circuit run for the blower?  That would be nice (if we could skip that expense).  And yes, a sketch would be terrific!

[raster69273]

It sounds as if your HVAC blower unit is not properly grounded. I assume it is a gas heater because it is 120V? The newer forced air units are utilizing a dc motor which they call an ECM or electronically controlled motor. You may have to have a PSC motor installed instead. Also, I believe your furnace is supposed to be on a dedicated circuit, by code. That should make it easier to filter line noise.

[BVD]

And yes, a sketch would be terrific!

Here you go. All the outlets on the power strip are filtered to prevent noise from getting to your house wiring. If you plug your blower into this strip, that should solve your problem.
Also is the XPS3 switch being used in a three way circuit or as a single switch circuit. Noise has nothing to do with the led being lit dimly. I feel quite sure something else is causing this.

Hope this sketch helps.