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[ppitkin]

Hi All,
I've spent the last few days searching the forum and can't find an answer to my problem so I'm going to start a new thread.

I'm fairly new to the home automation game but I'm catching on quickly so please bare with me.

I suppose I should first of all give some information about my setup...
I have a large (8000+ sq ft) holiday home out in Canada which I've been slowly wanting to automate so that I can control most things remotely from my home in Germany. I should point out that if gone for an Insteon based and not X10 - but before you all start shouting at me my problem is a general one which would affect X10 as well.

To date I have installed a number of on/off light switches, dimmers and power sockets at various places around the house which enable me to turn on and off the various cameras (so I can reboot them if required), the network system, the home server (on a UPS), the garage lights, the fridge, the HVAC's and the hot water tanks. Control is  either via the web based Smartlinc (connected directly to my outgoing router) or via home control running on the server and communicating via a Powerlink.

So about my problem. I've found that every thing works great until I throw the circuit breakers to power on the Hot Tub (Artic Spa - model Yukon). It appears that this generates so much electrical noise that nothing works when it is on - not even a transmitter and receiver on the same circuit placed not more than a foot from each other. What might also be a useful piece of background information is that the hot water tanks (3 in total) are each powered on and off via individual ELK-9100 30Amp 220V units. Now the nice thing about these units is that they come with an indicator light which flashes when an X-10 signal is received. Now power on my Hot-tub and the indicator lights start flashing like the lights on a Christmas tree (occurs on all three units and the tanks are located in different parts of the house.) Disconnect the hot-tub by throwing the circuit breakers and the indicator lights remain off and my Insteon system works again.

These ELK-9100 units also provide signal bridging between the two phases. I also have the recommended Insteon "Access points" to perform phase coupling. To date the UPS has cause a problem. Neither have TV's, Fridge or any other device (just lucky I guess).

I'm absolutely convinced that my problem lies with noise being generated by the Hot-tub. My problem is that I don't know what would be a suitable filter to build into the hot-tub circuit to isolate it from the rest of the house (I don't need to control any devices on that circuit by the way).
The circuit is two phase with 40A contact breakers on each phase. The most I've been able to find out about the Hot-tub at the moment is that it is fitted with at least 2 5-HP motors for jets and air.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could use.

Another side question that I have is does it hurt having multiple phase couplers on the system.

Peter.

[dave w]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could use.

Another side question that I have is does it hurt having multiple phase couplers on the system.

Peter.

Peter,
I'm going out on a limb here. Maybe the Leviton In-Line Noise Reducer filter will work since load current does not go through the filter(?) see the link below.

Also, years back I had a Lenox Pulse furnace that wiped out most of the X10 in my home. I discovered the problem was a line powered control board. I stopped the noise by filtering only the power to the control board and not the power to the entire furnace. You might have a similar situation because it is unlikely that the spa heaters or pumps are making the noise.

http://www.smarthome.com/_/Troubleshooting_Training/Noise_Filters/Noise_Filters_Attenuation_PLC_RF/_/t/2Mt/1TZ/nav.aspx

The ACT 20 amp filter could be choice in that scenario. If the board power is 220V you would need two.

[Brian H]

I agree with dave w. If the hot tubs electronics can be filtered. A large filter may not be needed.
You have a computer and UPS, not filtered? Many times they can reduce signal levels.

[ppitkin]

Guys, thanks for the ideas.

Dave, I had read the thread where you discussed your mod to the furnace but I wasn't what would be the noise generator in the hot-tub as I haven't opened it up and wouldn't know it it  was the motors or the electronics making the noise. I was also hoping that I might be able to pre-order some kit so that it is there for when I next get out to the chalet. As far as the suggestion on the Levington filter goes it was my understanding that this type of filter should not be used as they tend to be a signal sink.

Brian,
I was also surprised by the fact that the UPS didn't seem to be creating such a problem (given everything I've read in the forumns in the last few days). I gues the mesh/repeater funtionality of the Insteon Network compensates enough to keep things running in my case. That said I will be placing filters on everything that I can when I get out there next.

Do either of you have any idea if having the multiple phase coupling is detrimental (ELK-9100's and the Insteon Access points)?

Guess it looks like I'll just be ordering a handfull of each of the dirreferent filters out there and try to play oround inside the hot-tub rather than just isolating the curcuit as a whole.

[Brian H]

The Access Points do not repeat or couple X10 signals. So they are fine in a mixed X10 Insteon setup. I have two Access Points and an XTB-IIR repeater. It replaced an ACT CR134 that replaced a Smarthome Dryer repeater. All where fine with the APs.

Now the ELK 9100 is a question that actual findings maybe needed.
Some X10 repeaters are fine with Insteon. Mine where.
Some like the early BoosterLincs took part of the Insteon message at Zero Crossing and tried to send it back as a X10 signal. Making the Insteon signal garbage. Actual tests with the 9100 maybe needed. You could always use J3 to disable the repeater if needed.

[dave w]

Guys, thanks for the ideas.

Dave, I had read the thread where you discussed your mod to the furnace but I wasn't what would be the noise generator in the hot-tub as I haven't opened it up and wouldn't know it it  was the motors or the electronics making the noise. I was also hoping that I might be able to pre-order some kit so that it is there for when I next get out to the chalet. As far as the suggestion on the Levington filter goes it was my understanding that this type of filter should not be used as they tend to be a signal sink.

Hi Peter
I think a simple test to isolate motors and heaters as noise sources is to turn off heater, aerator and circulator pumps and see if you still have X10 noise on the spa branch. If so, it is the control board buried somewhere in the tub. A service manual or call to Arctic Spa may tell you what you want to know. The control board is going to have the electronics to monitor water temp and control the heater, and to isolate line voltage from user controls. My bet is, like my furnace control, it operates from line voltage and has an on board switching power supply to reduce the voltage to that used by the low voltage logic.  Arctic Spa may even have filters available.