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Author Topic: HVAC  (Read 21817 times)

nklght

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HVAC
« on: March 13, 2006, 12:35:13 AM »

I would like to see a retrofit HVAC system to perform zoned style heating and cooling.  I believe this would require an X10 damper with a remote X10 temperature sensor, and they work with an X10 thermostat.  Basically as the heat or a/c is running, the dampers will shut and if all dampers are shut then a signal is sent to the thermostat not to operate.    As, the different dampers open, the unit will signal the thermostat to switch on.  I would like to add an external sensor to the thermostat, so if the a/c or heat is set to on, and if it is cooler or warmer outside an message is displayed to open windows.  Later X10 can be incorprorated to open and close windows, depending on the weather.
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agismama

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2007, 08:10:26 AM »

This is *exactly* what I want - this is the only reason I've been researching X10 at all, I was really hoping to be able to do both the vents/hvac and the windows.  Last night I had the fan on all night and the AC working to cool the house down from the 80+ degrees it had reached during the day.  This morning I got up and realized it was 60 outside - just have to open up the windows.  It doesn't seem like this would be that hard to automate.

However since I've seen no replies to this wish you posted a year ago I'm assumiung that X10 is rather useless to me at the moment.

While searching this forum I've seen references to "more expensive" non DIY stuff that will do some of this (the windows at least).  I probably wouldn't be willing to pay what it costs but I can't even find out where to buy it or what it would cost.

Does anyone have any suggestions??????
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HA Dave

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2007, 07:56:24 PM »


.............. I've seen references to "more expensive" non DIY stuff that will do some of this (the windows at least).  I probably wouldn't be willing to pay what it costs but I can't even find out where to buy it or what it would cost.

Does anyone have any suggestions??????


I think you likely can do this with X10... if your a do-it-yourselfer.

However if you want a pro's opinion check your yellow pages (and on-line) for Home Automation. Or you could try a local heating/AC Service.
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agismama

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2007, 09:46:01 PM »

OK, I'll call someone local for an estimate.  But.. let's just assume that I'm not willing to pay their prices (not too extreme an assumption really)... 

I usually am a do-it yourselfer but I am new to X-10.  I believe I am sufficiently geeky that once I try to learn more about X10 DIY I could master it eventually - plus I probably know some folks that could give me hands on tutorials if I know what to ask them. 

This is not the first time that I have been told that "you likely can do this with X10... " but I have yet to find a how-to on the subject - this puzzles me - certainly I (or rather nklght before me) am not the first person to want a temperature controlled damper or weather controlled windows.

Can someone give suggestions on how to start a project like this - either project?

Just to be clear, here are the projects...
1. Vents on the HVAC with individual temperature sensors, they open when the room needs heating/cooling and close when the job is done.  The heat and AC are then controlled by the dampers, if one is open heat or AC goes on, if all are closed heat or AC is off.
2. Windows controlled by temperature and weather - closed in bad weather or when the temperature outside would indicate you want them closed.  If the weather is good, you want your house cooled down and the temp outside is cooler than inside they open, similar for heating the house.
3. A way to integrate these two systems (no point in running the AC if opening the windows will do the job)

Before I investigate too far into possibilities myself I need some encouragement from experts that this is something that can be done.  I am facing a fair amount of spousal resistance just to the idea ("next you'll want to put jet-packs on the kitchen cabinets...")  So buying some parts, tinkering, and not figuring it out seems rather ill advised.

The ideal system would probably incorporate the blinds as well but then I'd need to buy blinds... plus I've seen how-tos for blinds so I don't need advice on that.

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-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2007, 10:09:39 PM »

agismama:

One caution on the HVAC part:

Running the HVAC system with most of the vents blocked (to try and heat a single room for instance) can cause the fan motor to have to work harder and actually increase the energy used by the fan (not to mention a little extra wear-and-tear on the motor).

That said, I have seen (don't ask me where) damper systems sold that basically "blow up a balloon" inside the heating / cooling duct for the room, blocking it off when the room doesn't need heating or cooling.

Something for you to search for.   :)
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HA Dave

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 10:17:59 PM »

I actually did install a furnace once YEARS ago, but furnaces have changed a lot in the last thirty years. Contemporary furnaces have flow detection, and may bulk (malfunction) when you start dampening off the air flow, particularly when heating.

Bringing in outside air..... through power ventilation... is rather old technology. Combining the two, using X10, although likely an advanced project should (should) be do-able to most cases.

However, if you not a heating/cooling tech, and you've never used X10.... thats a pretty big bite of project to chew on.



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TakeTheActive

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 04:07:08 AM »


This is *exactly* what I want...


I would like to see a retrofit HVAC system to perform zoned style heating and cooling.

  • I believe this would require an X10 damper with a remote X10 temperature sensor, and they work with an X10 thermostat.
  • Basically as the heat or a/c is running, the dampers will shut and if all dampers are shut then a signal is sent to the thermostat not to operate.
  • As the different dampers open, the unit will signal the thermostat to switch on.
  • I would like to add an external sensor to the thermostat, so if the a/c or heat is set to on, and if it is cooler or warmer outside an message is displayed to open windows.
  • Later X10 can be incorprorated to open and close windows, depending on the weather.
[/size]


...let's just assume that I'm not willing to pay their prices (not too extreme an assumption really)... 

I usually am a do-it yourselfer but I am new to X-10.  I believe I am sufficiently geeky that once I try to learn more about X10 DIY I could master it eventually - plus I probably know some folks that could give me hands on tutorials if I know what to ask them...

KEY POINT!

FIRST, you have to "do your OWN homework" and READ, READ, READ SOME MORE... ;)


...This is not the first time that I have been told that "you likely can do this with X10... " but I have yet to find a how-to on the subject - this puzzles me - certainly I (or rather nklght before me) am not the first person to want a temperature controlled damper or weather controlled windows.

Can someone give suggestions on how to start a project like this - either project?

FIRST, you have to "do your OWN homework" and READ, READ, READ SOME MORE... :D


...Just to be clear, here are the projects:

  • 1. Vents on the HVAC with individual temperature sensors, they open when the room needs heating/cooling and close when the job is done.  The heat and AC are then controlled by the dampers, if one is open heat or AC goes on, if all are closed heat or AC is off.

  • 2. Windows controlled by temperature and weather - closed in bad weather or when the temperature outside would indicate you want them closed.  If the weather is good, you want your house cooled down and the temp outside is cooler than inside they open, similar for heating the house.

  • 3. A way to integrate these two systems (no point in running the AC if opening the windows will do the job)

Before I investigate too far into possibilities myself I need some encouragement from experts that this is something that can be done.[/size]

IMO, YEP...


...buying some parts, tinkering, and not figuring it out seems rather ill advised.

I disagree!

Quote from:  --George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Take a look at the recent work of rms59 and his "Automated Drapes".

Again, IMHO, if *YOU* take some initiative, buy some parts and tinker around a bit, I'm certain that fellow Members will pitch in with ideas and suggestions. But, if you want your fellow Members to DESIGN IT FOR YOU, ain't gonna happen...


...Last night I had the fan on all night and the AC working to cool the house down from the 80+ degrees it had reached during the day.  This morning I got up and realized it was 60 outside - just have to open up the windows.  It doesn't seem like this would be that hard to automate.

Over FORTY YEARS AGO, I, as a mere teen, always enjoyed visiting my uncle, who was the superintendent of a ?60 unit? apartment building. Back then, the boilers had an OUTSIDE sensor to disable HEAT when the outside temperature was above a certain number - NO COMPUTERS - all relays, mechanical timers, bi-metallic strips, etc...


...However since I've seen no replies to this wish you posted a year ago I'm assumiung that X10 is rather useless to me at the moment...

"ASS-U-ME"  ::) :D :P

BTW, FYI, I don't spend a good half hour re-formatting several posts into a reply if I'm not offering assistance / ideas / encouragement... [Ask anyone! 8) ]

UPDATE: I think this took me closer to an hour! :o
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dave w

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 12:42:25 PM »

agismama

Everything you want to do is achievable using X10 TO CONTROL the power windows, the power dampers, etc. But you need to decide if you want to spend the bucks and the time to put power dampers in all your ducts and replace all your windows with power driven "crank-outs" or design and build and install your own power drives for your existing windows.

The X10 part of your dream system is actually the simplest.

My guess is; if DIY,  you are talking hundreds of hours of work and thousands of dollars...BUT IT WILL BE BIG FUN!! I think what TTA is saying is; there really isn't a "set of plans" out there for this, because every situation is unique.

It is kind of like asking "how do I convert my 1982 Valiant into a fire belching dragster?" It is possible, but most of it will be "seat of your pants" DIY.

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HA Dave

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 02:06:08 PM »

I have been thinking about this post.... and how it would apply to ME... if this was a project goal of my own.

Bill, taketheactive, and dave w all gave GREAT advice and provide excellent information.

I use my (home) office as a "test platform" for many of my new projects and/or devices. It provides me with a place where my set-up(s) won't be disturbed and more importantly where normal household functions won't be effected. This helps keep my WAF (Wife Approval Factor) high (or as high as it gets). [agismama, you will see WAF referred to through out the forum..... we're all in this together]. I think, I would create a test set-up using my office only (instead of the whole house).

I think I would do some searching.... on the topics of power ventilation, and maybe also try to find a source for those "bladder vent dampers" Bill mentioned..

I still use paper to sketch out my plans (I still like to see things work "on paper". So I would attempt to engineer a way to motorize my one office window. Then plan a macro, via an X10 thermostat, and temperature sensor. Of course, I would also want to include some sort of rain detection device.

I already use AHP (Active Home Pro), so creating a macro shouldn't be that difficult (I would just ask Tuicemen). Of course, being a BIG fan of BXVC, I would also need to add these functions into my voice control and speech reporting system. But that would be another thread.
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nklght

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Re: HVAC
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2007, 01:01:50 AM »

I did learn of a product that with the use of their brain and dampers, and the incorporation of the powerflash module, X-10 can control zone heating and cooling.  I will have to go back into my records to determine the company name, and it is expensive.
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