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[ladman]

Well, I would like to extend a thank you to everyone for all of your post here, especially those enthusiast that frequent the board often to assist others.
I had an awful experience 7 years ago with X10 and their customer service and was hoping that things would have improved by then. Judging by the post here, apparently not.
I was looking for a complete video, security system for my new home but have opted to go another more expensive and professional route. My family is too precious to me to bank on a setup
that requires ongoing  tinkering and playing with just to get it to work with no false alarms. I would hope that Insteon gets better and I will monitor that company for improvements but X10 has been officially taken off our list.
I am sure a few like it as a  hobby, but security is more than a hobby to my family. Thanks again for the post and the education.

[ArtClark]

Actually, for a truly "UL Listed" security system, RF is not to be considered.  No matter how good the system it can be defeated if someone really wants to.  Video as part of security will always be for seeing what happened afterward, so the rules here are different.  Just realize, apart from the NO RF rule for a useful security system, all you are really doing with a "Professional" system is putting the responsibility of making sure the system works into the hands of a third party.  A true "Wired" system will always do a check, but you are trusting the installer to not make any install mistakes, etc.

I, personally, have used both the X-10 (and "Clones") and have a standard, Wired, Monitored System.  Of course the Wired system is the fully dependable one.  Only this system can auto-call the Police, Fire Dept, etc.  BUT, the price difference between My true monitored system and My X-10 system is HUGE.  So it really comes down to Price / Security.

(I actually take one input of the "Wired" system and control that with the X-10 System.  Best of both worlds, but takes me a VERY long time to ensure I don't false the Monitored System. (Gets expensive with police showing up for dead batteries, etc.)

Your best statement is "Fine for a hobby".  If you want to keep playing, you CAN make a very secure system with X-10 that will be custom enough so an intruder will have to have specific knowledge to get in, but for quick, plug and play security, Wired and monitored is the only game in town.

Quick note:  I had my "UL Listed" wired system professionally installed, tested and put into operation in 1995.  Full battery back-up and all the little goodies.  I even had them add motion sensors and some extra windows sensors.  It took me a whole 15 minutes to figure a way in without tripping that.  (Of course, I had knowledge of placement, but I didn't use any info I couldn't get by just looking at the exposed parts.)  X-10 does offer as much as you want, but true "Total security" only exists if you are home and armed better than the intruder.  If you aren't home, then what you want to do then is limited by the system you have installed.

Sorry for such a long reply, but After doing about 10 different setups for family and friends, I learned that there is really no perfect solution, Wired is the most dependable, X-10 is the most flexable, and a .45 plus big dog is the most effective.

Good luck.  ( It's good to see that Family still comes first....)

[HA Dave]

Actually, for a truly "UL Listed" security system, RF is not to be considered.  No matter how good the system it can be defeated if someone really wants to.

Of course.. ALL systems can be defeated. Banks get robbed....Reagan got shot.

  Video as part of security will always be for seeing what happened afterward, .

I am not sure I agree with that. I think video can act as a deterrent. "Deterrents" are one LAYER of security.

so the rules here are different.  Just realize, apart from the NO RF rule for a useful security system, all you are really doing with a "Professional" system is putting the responsibility of making sure the system works into the hands of a third party.  A true "Wired" system will always do a check, but you are trusting the installer to not make any install mistakes, etc.

I, personally, have used both the X-10 (and "Clones") and have a standard, Wired, Monitored System.  Of course the Wired system is the fully dependable one.  Only this system can auto-call the Police, Fire Dept, etc.  BUT, the price difference between My true monitored system and My X-10 system is HUGE.  So it really comes down to Price / Security.

What about risk assessment? One of the "features" of a true "Professional" system, is risk assessment. It ls a difficult science to master itself, and when doing it for your own home and family, emotions may make it an overwhelming task.

a .45 plus big dog is the most effective.

Big, loud, barking dogs are one of those great "deterrents", and they can be great companions too. However, a 45 caliber handgun would not be my 1st choice of a home defense weapon. If your my neighbor, please consider a smaller caliber handgun, with a lighter load, and jacketed hollow-point. I will sleep better knowing your missed shot, isn't my death-nail.

P.S. Shooting intruders... not legal here in my state.

[JimC]

Video as part of security will always be for seeing what happened afterward

I must agree with Dave_x10_L remarks on this one. Video can be a great deterant, especially if the cameras are vissable. At one company I worked at we had a problem with employees breaking into the vending machines. This happened mostly at night when few managers were available. After several months of this we mounted a fake camera on a motorized mount and had it scanning back and forth across the vending machines. After this was done not a single incident of any more breakins occurred. The only one that knew the camera was not real was the manager that had it installed (me)

[HA Dave]

Video as part of security will always be for seeing what happened afterward

I must agree with Dave_x10_L remarks on this one. Video can be a great deterant, especially if the cameras are vissable.

Thanks Jim

Unfortunately... I have lived too closely to safety and security issues most of my (long) life. I have tried many times to explain that safety and security aren't single fix issues like a (seat belt for safety, or a) security alarm system.

I also know... that neighborhood kid playing on the plastic toy truck today... will be the most likely intruder, 10 years from today. The LAST thing I want to do is rip his body apart with a bullet.

Deter....deter...deter. If they realize they can't steal my toys, without getting caught..... they also know my other neighbors have toys too.

[Duck69]

Ditto to JimC & Dave_x10_L. 

Security of any kind is simply a DETERRANT !
It is used with the HOPE that if will keep someone from attempting to deprive you of your valuables or life.
In the event that they do make an attempt; Then it's HOPED that your SECURITY will prevent them from achieving their goal and or making a recording that can later be used to identify and prosecute them.

  Security systems such as the DS7000 can call several people including the Police.

A note on Monitored Systems:
Originally my wife had a monitored system installed from "Safe". 3 year contract @ $40 a month. That cost me $1440. And for what ? They installed a Base, 2 door sensors, 1 motion detector and gave her 1 One button emergency RF sender that you can wear on your wrist or neck.
If the alarm goes off, which it did once. (Broken washer hose, water everywhere, ran out the door to get the shop vac, tripped the alarm)(Anyone knows why this sort of thing only happens very late at night or in the wee hours ?) They called our home (Too busy to answer them) then they called the police. We were in the middle of cleaning up when they arrived.

I have since installed X10 Security & Automation in my home & garage. At $40 a month, let's see, how much does a vacation to Costa Rica cost ? Hmmm..... 

A dog is definitely a good deterrent. A GUN isn't !
I have a P95 9mm that I keep under lock and key.

As a Veteran, believe me. KILLING SOMEONE IS THE VERY LAST THING THAT YOU EVER WANT TO DO. 

[HA Dave]

Ditto to JimC & Dave_x10_L. 
As a Veteran, believe me. KILLING SOMEONE IS THE VERY LAST THING THAT YOU EVER WANT TO DO. 

(Vet here too.)
Good security.... good idea. Shoot-out in the living... bad idea.
Even if you win... you lose.

[steven r]

....3 year contract @ $40 a month....

While I love tinkering with X10, I chose to have an installed system that gives me more reliability than I would feel I would have with an X10 system.
However, I think it's despicable scam for companies such ADT or your example above to bait the public with almost free installs just to rake you over the coals for monitoring. Beware of low price installs! Most require you to use their monitoring service by blocking you from using anyone else to monitor the system.

[ArtClark]

Woaaaa.  I didn't expect this much of a reaction.  I must chime in to fully clarify a few things.

As Duck69 stated perfectly, Security of ANY KIND is a deterrant.  If someone wants to break in, defeating a camera 99% of the time is NOT going to trip an alarm.  (Sorry, too many friends on the Wrong side of the tracks, if you know what I mean.)

I have always condisered the determination of Price / Security AS risk assessment.  That's the whole idea.  If you feel safe enough.  All of this type of decision ends up being emotional, as my wife would prove.  (The idea of remote, Battery powered Cell phone back-up for when phone lines are cut doesn't help her assesment of the system, but it makes a difference to me.)

Removed Personal Opinion - NOT Relevant

Wow, I guess I ranted more than I thought, But seeing that everyone was really saying the same as I was trying to, but in a much more understandable way, I must capitulate to the crowd.  For the average kid, vandal, etc. a video camera would probably be MORE of a deterrant than an alarm.  Your absolutely right in this.  I was thinking much more in the "Professional" burglar attempting to get in while no-one is home.  Here, a camera is pretty much useless.  To any normal guy, however, a camera might be monitored, might be recording, etc.  which would have a HUGE deterrant effect.  This is a point of view that I often overlook in the setups that I do.  Of course, the only break-ins that have actually been SEEN by me were by professionals, so that is why I have a case of "Tunnel Vision" there.  (Strangely enough, I am thinking of adding cameras to my own system.  Hypocritical, isn't it.)

Lastly, the one thing that truly seperates the "X-10" type systems and the "Wired" systems is the "Human" in the system.  X-10 can call the police.  It can even give a specific message.  (Even though this is illegal in my state.)  the Monitored system is going to have a person doing this.  Bad phone line, the person can handle it, call state police, etc.  Fire, handle it differently.  For My wife, it was simply the KNOWLEDGE that a person was there that made it worth it.  I would prefer the X-10 and wired without the monitoring and trip noises, make calls, etc. without the "Human".  But to keep the emotion level to the minimum, non-technical people usually prefer working with a person or knowing a person is doing it.  (I'd love any male to explain females in a way that makes perfect sense.  Of course I'd love to have someone scribble the grand unification theroy for me too.  I think the second is more likely than the first.)  This being said, What is the monitoring worth?  I, too, think the price of monitoring is way over the top, but I AM getting the service of a human being, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  That ain't cheap by any means, but I agree that the current pricing is WAY too high.  Unfortunately, if I want to "Directly" contact the Fire Dept or the Police, I need a human to do it.  Automated connections of this type aren't allowed here.  (Could easily call friend, neighbor, etc. and have them call, but there is the two-step process that could break down and then a machine makes the decision what to do  next.... I'm sure you see where this goes.)

[HA Dave]

Risk assessment

It really has more to do with risk vs harm. Not feelings.

[ArtClark]

OK Dave, Point taken.

In the reality of being married, I find that the more important factor is how secure the wife feels than how secure the wife IS.  This makes no logical sense to me, but that IS my reality. 

Truthfully, a Risk Assesment for Harm isn't of any use if the object is to make a person feel safe.  It will help alarm salesmen sell more options and products.  Without revealing personal business, there are people after relations of mine that it would not be possible to totally secure them against.  How safe they FEEL is all thats important to them, because REAL safety isn't possible.  It's only when you are figuring on paper, or in discussion, that true risk assesment becomes useful.  How else can you try to describe producing a feeling of safety.  I would appreciate yuor opinion on this, even though we are now way Off topic, because what I have always considered the way to figure it out obviously could use improvement.  For ME, I have no problem, but assisting others has always been hard due to this "Feeling" issue.

Thanks for anything you can come up with, and remember, the people I will feed this to don't want technical details.  (Most of them wouldn't understand the basics anyway...)

[ArtClark]

Hate to Chime in Twice, but I must Thank Dave again for that link.  Left me reading for almost 3 hours on how to apply scientific method to threat analysis RE: comfort in home versus security.  This has got me very bugged and JimC, who mentioned some experience in this area, seems to have hit on my sticking point.  Where does the Cost/Comfort/Security line get drawn.

Obviously, each person has their own opinion on what describes "Acceptable Risk", but there must be some "Basics" that can be applied so the "Decision" isn't based on "Feeling" alone.  As Dave put it so well "Risk vs: Harm".  This, however, means all risk would be determined from how much "Harm" could be done. (Physical and Emotional?)  That would mean lack of knowledge on possible Risk could be the largest Risk factor?  I'm lost, and way out of my league on this one.  Maybe I should just say, the original starter of this post probably had the right idea.  If it works for him, and puts him below the Acceptable Risk line for him, no matter how he figured it, then that is the system for him.

If this assumption is incorrect, then neither feeling nor static knowledge should be applied and the whole thing comes down to dry facts that change as intruders, vandels or whatever get better at their task. 

I think I'm sounding foolish now.  Somewhere in the middle there must be a comprimise.  Both real Risk assesment and Emotional security need to be addressed, but I'm obviously not qualified to try to figure out where Physical reality Meets emotional needs.

(This is probably why my WAF is so sub-zero...)  This is NOT the forum to ask this type of question, but then again, maybe it is?  At what point and what criteria does the need of security pass the level that X-10 provides.  Would this be a "Personal" question or should it be argued with Tech info and statistics?  If Tech Level is the main arguement, who's going to have the final say on the required level of sophistication?

This type of discussion is a little off but quite important to me.  I try to be open-minded, and have found that taking the side that is oppisite to what I "Believe" can be very informative.  A few people yelling at me (or typing in CAPS  ) would be appreciated.  Even though I prefer X-10 to Wired and believe "security by Obscerity" works, UL still doesn't approve RF systems..  I "feel" that with the proper setup and addons that X-10 could be MORE secure than a stock wired system, just because only I have that specific configuration and can work around any limitations I "Feel" comprimise my security.  (Again, though, where is that line!) 

Even the above statement,, it's my opinion, not provable fact, and where the line is drawn by different people is how my opinion was formed (Partially).  I think there must be (As I already said, sorry to drone on...) a "Basic" level of determination for security.

Suggestions?  Comments?  Statements from Experience?  All will be welcomed.  As number five said -  "I Need Input!"

TIA

[JimC]

Where does the Cost/Comfort/Security line get drawn

In my uneducated opinion, I believe this is a moving target. In my 50+ years in the same neighborhood in the city of Pittsburgh I have seen things go from people not locking their doors to neighbors having alarm systems installed. This change occurred in a recent, relatively short period of time. I think it is a matter of ones personal comfort level and it will be different for each of us.

I recently moved to a suburb and I am still evaluating what I now need. For the time being I have a camera hidden at each entrance that when activated, by motion sensors, will start a video recorder. So far all I have recorded is the deer that eat my schrubs in the back yard. I am sure this will change as I get more or less comfortable in my new surroundings. In this set up the cameras are not a deterant, as they are hidden.


Jim

[MrBlackCat]

My 2 cents based on the entire thread...

I might be missunderstanding, but the Original Poster seems to miss the issue in a way.  While having your robbery or even murder recorded reliably might be of great importance to them, cameras and most security systems can't stop anything. (e.g. "My family is too precious to me to bank on a setup...")  As was stated, "deterrent" is the key, and deterrent is probably the least factor in a situation that offerer "real danger" of bodily harm.  *I* decided on "real danger of bodily harm" being the issue based on the the example quote, so I withhold the right of inaccuracy of the direction of this post.
Cameras and Law Enforcement (in most cases) are elements and entities to "pick up the pieces", not actually "stop" crimes.  That could be the "individual" view.
If you look at this situation from a more broad point of view outside the individual point of view recording such crimes MIGHT allow law enforcement to catch them "after the fact" and POSSIBLY prevent it from happening to the next person, which is good.  Better cameras and system would be great for protecting the next victims, yes?
I don't deny that higher reliability cameras COULD warn you and allow you some time to react as well. (get that .45 maybe?)

My point is that comparing wired/non-wired or X10 to other is mostly a separate issue to personal safety.  BUT not piece of mind necessarily.  As was stated by others, if it makes you comfortable, and that is all you need, great... To me, it isn't fair to compare two products like that though.  If BOTH function 100% or 0% they can't directly "protect" you, unless you plan to monitor them for activity, as a warning system to defend yourself. Maybe that is what was intended.  Usage and application information was not offed in the post, so again, I reserve the right of inaccuracy.

Any system can be defeated as previously stated.  In a vast amount of dealing with criminals one quickly learns that being caught doesn't matter to most, due to the "catch and release" program most government systems have for most crimes in the US. I could go so far into this we would need another Message Board, not just a thread.  But this is already getting off topic of this board, so I am cutting it here.

I have worked with Risk Assessment before.  It can be a painful science.
I would like to provide two examples of approaches.
Example 1:
I was involved with a situation of someone being computer hacked continuously.  Firewalls, monitoring, she had tried seemingly everything.  Her provider dropped her because when her computer system became unavailable, he started attacking them.  After a couple of provider changes, and because of my knowledge and technology available at the time, the outcome was not to "stop" them from getting in, but to provide a backup system for quickly recovering after a destructive hack.

Example 2:
A business that kept getting robbed at night, after hours by shear force over and over was getting heat from the police about "having to keep coming down here".  They installed an "absolute" pepper gas system.  It took you down.  Two breakins and three perfect captures later, the breakins stopped completely. (until the city government required them to remove it as it was "to brutal")

But the point is that there are multiple approaches and that is where Risk Assessment can assist.

I like the "real world" statement from ArtClark "In the reality of being married, I find that the more important factor is how secure the wife feels than how secure the wife IS.  This makes no logical sense to me, but that IS my reality."

To ArtClark, I don't think you sound foolish all.

How you feel is very important in so many cases.  Fear can be crippling for so many people.  Fear must be tempered with logic in cases like this in my opinion.  That logic doesn't always come from within yourself though.  As ArtClarks statement indicates, he is the logic, his wife is the emotional element. Common balance it seems... wife/husband.  I believe fear is something to be conquered in most cases though.


Thanks to everyone for posting your diverse views in this thread.  It is an interesting read for sure.

John Martin
MrBlackCat

[steven r]

My 2 cents based on the entire thread...
...How you feel is very important in so many cases.  Fear can be crippling for so many people.  Fear must be tempered with logic in cases like this in my opinion....
...Thanks to everyone for posting your diverse views in this thread.  It is an interesting read for sure.

Your 2 cents seems to of graduated you from newbie status.
Fear of danger is often more crippling than the feared danger itself. Some would say that living in "fear consciousness" draws the thing you fear to you. The simple solution that reduces fear can be the best one. e.g. Sometimes just motion detected flood lights might be all you need to reassure oneself.
Thanks to you also for sparking this thread with your thoughts.