Automation problems - bigger filter?

[jpc763]

Hi,

New to the forum.  I have about 16 lights and appliance hooked up to x-10 and all was working well until my microwave oven died.  I replaced the dead GE Microwave with a new Whirlpool oven of the same wattage and size.  After that, 2 of my addresses stopped responding to my remotes or timers.

In the past, I have added x10 filters XPPF 5 amp models between the offending appliance and have 2 installed in the house.  They have always worked until this time.  Installation of the filter does not fix the problem.  I can only get rid of the problem by unplugging the microwave.

Do I need a bigger (10 amp - FilterLinc) filter?

Thanks, John

[Puck]

Total Wattage / 120V = Size of Filter

... crude, but will give you an idea of the filters current requirements. Basically, a 5 Amp filter is good for up to 600 Watts... I'm sure they don't make microwaves that small anymore.

If your microwave is in the kitchen (a safe assumption) try plugging it into the other outlet in the same socket (most kitchen plugs have each outlet on a different phase) ...doing this may be a easy fix for you.

[jpc763]

Total Wattage / 120V = Size of Filter

... crude, but will give you an idea of the filters current requirements. Basically, a 5 Amp filter is good for up to 600 Watts... I'm sure they don't make microwaves that small anymore.

If your microwave is in the kitchen (a safe assumption) try plugging it into the other outlet in the same socket (most kitchen plugs have each outlet on a different phase) ...doing this may be a easy fix for you.

Thanks.  I tried both outlets on up in cubby hole and they both exhibit the same problem.  I currently have a 5 amp on it and I guess I need a 10 amp.  The old microwave did not need a filter at all, but of course a diffent brand has different problems!  Bummer because I just ordered 2 more 5 amp filters yesterday when I could have ordered a 10 amp.

[TakeTheActive]

...If your microwave is in the kitchen (a safe assumption) try plugging it into the other outlet in the same socket (most kitchen plugs have each outlet on a different phase)...

Sensible idea, but I've never heard of it before.

• Is this a Canadian 'procedure', or more wide spread?
  
  
• Has anyone in the U.S.A. seen it?
  
  
• When (approximately) did it begin?
  
  
• Makes sense, but adds cost (12-3 vs 12-2 for 20A).
  
  In my 1964 U.S.A. home, Kitchen DUPLEX OUTLETS are on opposite sides of the same breaker, but not INDIVIDUAL (Top & Bottom) SOCKETS (terminology?) in the same DUPLEX OUTLET (i.e. BREAKING the COUPLER / SHORTING BAR (terminology?) and wiring two SEPARATE HOT leads).
  
  Following the same 'thought process', I HAVE heard of splitting the Top & Bottom SOCKETS, making one SWITCHED and the other UNSWITCHED. There are SEVERAL places in my home that I would have found that USEFUL (vs the current 'ALL or NONE'; i.e. I have no ceiling lights in the bedrooms - the switch by the door controls a COMPLETE duplex outlet, wasting, IMHO, one socket).
  

[TakeTheActive]

...I currently have a 5 amp on it and I guess I need a 10 amp... ...Bummer because I just ordered 2 more 5 amp filters yesterday when I could have ordered a 10 amp.

BIGGER?

• AMPS? No!
  
  
• ATTENUATION? Yes!
  

IMO, I think that you're going to be better off with 2 x 5A vs 1 x 10A (as long as your NEW microwave isn't drawing over 5A).

Spend some time (hours!) and (Advanced) SEARCH the 'Archives' here *AND* NEWSGROUP: Comp.Home.Automation - pay especial attention to all posts from JeffVolp. IIRC, I've read posts where STACKING filters *DOUBLES* the attenuation (but NOT the current handling capacity ). So, when the 2 new 5A filters arrive, try 2, or even 3, in SERIES (i.e. STACKED) and please report back your results.

[Puck]

Sensible idea, but I've never heard of it before.

Hey TTA, I'm not an electrician so I don't really know if there is a code behind this, but most places I've owned had the kitchen socket outlets separated by phase (and not just different breakers on the same phase).

Here is how my kitchen counter plugs are arranged: there are 4 plugs, the top outlets are on one phase and the bottom outlets are on the other phase. Also there is only two outlets per breaker. So for 4 plugs (8 outlets), there are 4 breakers using 2 phases... so you really have to know what your doing to trip a breaker.   

Don't know if this is a Canadian thing or not, but I'd guess it's something new within the past 20 years.

[HA Dave]

...If your microwave is in the kitchen (a safe assumption) try plugging it into the other outlet in the same socket (most kitchen plugs have each outlet on a different phase)...

• Is this a Canadian 'procedure', or more wide spread?
  
  
• Has anyone in the U.S.A. seen it?
  
  
• When (approximately) did it begin?
  

I remodeled a kitchen (in Ohio) back in the early 80's and my Dad told me about that. If I remember correctly, he had only heard of it recently (back then). I used a "gang box" .... two separate outlets, in one box, with one cover plate. Each side of the box went to a different breaker.

The idea was.... in my small kitchen with limited counter space.... appliances would generally end-up being used in the same area. And that the toaster would always be plugged in to one outlet.

I did the same thing at my current home (of course I love pulling wires). The kitchen was underwired and four new places for a plug (at a counter space where there had been none) improved my WAF. I just pulled two separate 12/2 (with a ground) wires, shared a breaker for one side and put in a new 15amp breaker for the other.

But those Canadians do have some good ideas........hey.

[jpc763]

...I currently have a 5 amp on it and I guess I need a 10 amp... ...Bummer because I just ordered 2 more 5 amp filters yesterday when I could have ordered a 10 amp.

BIGGER?

• AMPS? No!
  
  
• ATTENUATION? Yes!
  

IMO, I think that you're going to be better off with 2 x 5A vs 1 x 10A (as long as your NEW microwave isn't drawing over 5A).

Spend some time (hours!) and (Advanced) SEARCH the 'Archives' here *AND* NEWSGROUP: Comp.Home.Automation - pay especial attention to all posts from JeffVolp. IIRC, I've read posts where STACKING filters *DOUBLES* the attenuation (but NOT the current handling capacity ). So, when the 2 new 5A filters arrive, try 2, or even 3, in SERIES (i.e. STACKED) and please report back your results.

I will do that and let you know the results.  So the attenuation of the 10 amp SignalLinc is less than 2 x 5 amp XPPFs?  How about the 15 amp (AF-120) from Automated Outlet?

Thanks, John

[JeffVolp]

How about the 15 amp (AF-120) from Automated Outlet?

That is a good filter, and it should be suitable for this application.

Most microwave ovens available today pull well over 5A, so I don't recommend trying the 5A filter unless you know for sure your unit draws less than 600 watts from the line.  The smell of hot plastic will quickly warn you of an overload.

Jeff

[Brian H]

Well if it is a Smarthome 5 Amp Filter. I may blow the internal soldered in fuse. 

[jpc763]

How about the 15 amp (AF-120) from Automated Outlet?

That is a good filter, and it should be suitable for this application.

Most microwave ovens available today pull well over 5A, so I don't recommend trying the 5A filter unless you know for sure your unit draws less than 600 watts from the line.  The smell of hot plastic will quickly warn you of an overload.

Jeff

Jeff, so how do I determine if my unit draws less or more than 600 watts?  It is a 1000 watt microwave so I assume it draws 1000 watts.  It is pluged into the 5amp filter and it has not yet melted it!

John

[TakeTheActive]

...how do I determine if my unit draws less or more than 600 watts?

OT: P4400 Kill-A-Watt @ $18.99 w/*FREE* Shipping! [Hurry If You Want One!]

...It is a 1000 watt microwave so I assume it draws 1000 watts.

More!   How many things are 100% efficient?

[TakeTheActive]

...So the attenuation of the 10 amp SignalLinc is less than 2 x 5 amp XPPFs?  How about the 15 amp (AF-120) from Automated Outlet?

I personally don't know individual filter attenuation ratings, but, I do recall seeing some ?somewhere? in my travels.

Whatever numbers you come across in your search for a solution, please post them in:

[VOLUNTEERS] *Comprehensive* Filter, Passive Coupler & Signal Analyzer LINK List

Thanks!

[jpc763]

OK,  Got my package today containing 2 more XPPF 5 amp filters.  As suggested, I put 2 in series, then the Microwave. 

No luck    The X-10 in 2 rooms still does not respond. 

My next attempt will be a AF-120 15 amp filter unless someone tells me that 3 XPPF 5 amp filters in series is the trick.  Then I will disconnect one of my other ones and try 3.  They are a pain to put in series however.

I am adding this after the fact.  Per the owners manual, the power requirement for the microwave is: "A 120 Volt, 60 Hz, AC only, 15- or 20-amp electrical supply with a fuse or circuit breaker."

Based on that, I think I need a 15 amp filter.  Thoughts???

[JeffVolp]

Jeff, so how do I determine if my unit draws less or more than 600 watts?  It is a 1000 watt microwave so I assume it draws 1000 watts.

All electrical devices should have a label somewhere that gives their electrial consumption.  It is probably on the back of your microwave.  If it actually delivers 1000 watts of microwave energy, it must consume more that.  Scanning some typical listings, it looks like most of them consume about 1.5 times their rated cooking power.  The only way to be sure is to check the label.

The filter does have some thermal mass, and it will withstand a short-term overload before you begin to smell the hot plastic.  It runs warm even at its max rated load.  Overloading it with a 1000 watt or greater load is not something I would recommend even for a test.  Putting them in series does not increase their current rating.

Overload aside, I am a little puzzled why even one filter did not solve your problem.  You did say the problem only went away when the microwave was unplugged.  That is normally indicative of a signal sucker, which should be isolated by a filter.  The inductor may be saturating at max current, but that is not a factor when the microwave is not running.  Also, X10 signals are sent near the zero crossing, and the inductor should not be saturated at that point.  I'm wondering if there is something more going on here...

Jeff