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[Charles Bejarano]

I have read all I can handle so now I will write. All of this so-called "help" is moot.  Every posting which is meant to tell me why my Mini-Controller and Lamp Modules suddenly stopped working is simply meant to make me feel stupid.  I don't have a degree in electrical engineering, nor do I want one. The X10 products are sold in consumer stores, not electrical contarctor supply stores. There is NOTHING on any X10 product packaging which implies that conditions must be PERFECT for the product to work and purchase of additional items (noise filters, signal meters, etc.) WILL be required.

Now, before anyone gets upset with me (usually the hobbyists and electricians) about ranting about my problems, let me say that I've been using the X10 Mini-Controller and Lamp Modules for about 5 years. Everytime they quit working I would just replace them. I would just think that they are cheap so what do I expect? Being affordable, what's the difference? That was a few hundred dollars ago, and still only 1 controller and 3 lamp modules.

Now I find out that all those controllers and modules I threw away may have been fine. It may just be that my neighbor has decided to plug-in some new thing in his house or something else beyond my control.

I was recently at my desk doing some graphics work when I decided to dim the lights, something I do every evening. Nothing! No on or off, no dimming...nothing. Okay, well at least this one lasted a year. So down to Fry's Electronics to get another Mini-Controller and a Lamp Module. I just accepted it as the cost of having the modern convenience of remote control of my lights. This time, however, the new hardware didn't work. Out of curiosity, I took the "bad" controller and module into a different room and voila! Everything was fine. Back into the original room...nothing. Strange, since nothing has changed. Nothing has changed throughout the house. Nothing new plugged-in anywhere.

I'm told here that I'm just an idiot because I don't understand how it works. I shouldn't have to! The product is sold in the store as "plug it in and it works!" I have a mobile phone which converts my voice and face into a digital signal, beams it into outer space then back to earth where my friend in France sees it on his phone...and I never even read the manual.

If these things require some kind of filtering, shouldn't it just be built into the module?

I'm not an electrical engineer so don't talk to me as if I am. In layman's terms, explain to me why my Mini-Controller and Lamp Module decided to stop working in this room where nothing has changed and it has worked perfectly for nearly a year. And what can I do that doesn't involve even more money than I've already spent.

The packaging should read "This device depends upon conditions being ideal. X10 devices should be installed by qualified electricians only. Individual results may vary. Additional expense may be required to create ideal conditions for this device. Conditions may change unexpectedly without warning or explanation."

[Brian H]

On the filtering point. The device that is making the noise has to be filtered. If the filter was in the X10 Module the required signal to control it would not get through.
If you are sure that nothing has changed in the home, even a new cell phone charger or electronic gadget; then possibly something already installed is changing.
You said you where doing graphics? Is this on a computer and does the computer have a filter or surge suppressor on it. If so try the lights with the computer Unplugged as off is not enough. Most computers are running all the time on a standby supply.

[TakeTheActive]

I have read all I can handle so now I will write. All of this so-called "help" is moot...

...There is NOTHING on any X10 product packaging which implies that conditions must be PERFECT for the product to work and purchase of additional items (noise filters, signal meters, etc.) WILL be required.]

Now, before anyone gets upset with me (usually the hobbyists and electricians) about ranting about my problems, let me say that I've been using the X10 Mini-Controller and Lamp Modules for about 5 years. Everytime they quit working I would just replace them...

...Now I find out that all those controllers and modules I threw away may have been fine...

...This time, however, the new hardware didn't work. Out of curiosity, I took the "bad" controller and module into a different room and voila! Everything was fine. Back into the original room...nothing. Strange, since nothing has changed. Nothing has changed throughout the house. Nothing new plugged-in anywhere.

I'm told here that I'm just an idiot because I don't understand how it works. I shouldn't have to! The product is sold in the store as "plug it in and it works!"

...I'm not an electrical engineer so don't talk to me as if I am. In layman's terms, explain to me why my Mini-Controller and Lamp Module decided to stop working in this room where nothing has changed and it has worked perfectly for nearly a year. And what can I do that doesn't involve even more money than I've already spent.

The packaging should read:

[/size]"This device depends upon conditions being ideal. X10 devices should be installed by qualified electricians only. Individual results may vary. Additional expense may be required to create ideal conditions for this device. Conditions may change unexpectedly without warning or explanation."

Amen! 

You won't find a single Old Geezer here that doesn't agree with you 100%.(Well, maybe 99½%. Something *DID* change; that's WHY it stopped working. So what!  )

JeffVolp recently explained it rather well in his *NEW* X10 Tutorial Series: X10 Troubleshooting Tutorials - Feedback & Input Requested.

Many of you probably know that the X10 protocol was developed back in the 70’s by a Scottish firm called Pico Electronics.  Back then, homes contained relatively few electronic devices.  Things like computers and switching power supplies were barely on the horizon.  There was very little to interfere with X10 powerline communication in an average home, and those early BSR modules worked pretty well.

Fast-forward a few decades.  Our homes are becoming filled with more and more electronic devices.  We have computers, media systems, flat-panel televisions, electronic gaming systems, electronically-controlled major appliances, and compact fluorescent lights.  Many of these new devices incorporate switching power supplies.  The AC powerline environment has vastly changed, but the X10 protocol has remained the same.  Because of this, X10 devices don’t always work correctly “out of the box”.

Some people quickly throw in the towel and criticize X10 devices for being junk.  Actually, they are the same devices that worked very well when they were developed several decades ago.  All we have to do today to achieve that same level of reliability is to provide a similar environment for their powerline communications.  Below is an overview of the steps to be taken to achieve reliable X10 operation.  Other documents will go into each of these steps in much greater detail...

Read Jeff's articles (and my FAQs) and you'll have a better picture of what's really going on... There are PLENTY of non-X10 Staff folks here ready, willing and able to help you out! 

[Charles Bejarano]

On the filtering point. The device that is making the noise has to be filtered. If the filter was in the X10 Module the required signal to control it would not get through.
If you are sure that nothing has changed in the home, even a new cell phone charger or electronic gadget; then possibly something already installed is changing.
You said you where doing graphics? Is this on a computer and does the computer have a filter or surge suppressor on it. If so try the lights with the computer Unplugged as off is not enough. Most computers are running all the time on a standby supply.

That makes sense, thank you. Okay, so the filtering part has been addressed but still does not apply in this case as, once again, nothing has changed. Oh, I have saved new files to my hard drives. Does that count as a change that could affect the X10 system? If so, why has it never been a problem in the past? Of course that's just silly. No, something has certainly changed. just not anything within my household.

Thank you for your help.

[Charles Bejarano]

I have read all I can handle so now I will write. All of this so-called "help" is moot...

...There is NOTHING on any X10 product packaging which implies that conditions must be PERFECT for the product to work and purchase of additional items (noise filters, signal meters, etc.) WILL be required.]

Now, before anyone gets upset with me (usually the hobbyists and electricians) about ranting about my problems, let me say that I've been using the X10 Mini-Controller and Lamp Modules for about 5 years. Everytime they quit working I would just replace them...

...Now I find out that all those controllers and modules I threw away may have been fine...

...This time, however, the new hardware didn't work. Out of curiosity, I took the "bad" controller and module into a different room and voila! Everything was fine. Back into the original room...nothing. Strange, since nothing has changed. Nothing has changed throughout the house. Nothing new plugged-in anywhere.

I'm told here that I'm just an idiot because I don't understand how it works. I shouldn't have to! The product is sold in the store as "plug it in and it works!"

...I'm not an electrical engineer so don't talk to me as if I am. In layman's terms, explain to me why my Mini-Controller and Lamp Module decided to stop working in this room where nothing has changed and it has worked perfectly for nearly a year. And what can I do that doesn't involve even more money than I've already spent.

The packaging should read:

[/size]"This device depends upon conditions being ideal. X10 devices should be installed by qualified electricians only. Individual results may vary. Additional expense may be required to create ideal conditions for this device. Conditions may change unexpectedly without warning or explanation."

Amen!  :-

You won't find a single Old Geezer here that doesn't agree with you 100%.(Well, maybe 99½%. Something *DID* change; that's WHY it stopped working. So what!  )

JeffVolp recently explained it rather well in his *NEW* X10 Tutorial Series: X10 Troubleshooting Tutorials - Feedback & Input Requested.

Many of you probably know that the X10 protocol was developed back in the 70’s by a Scottish firm called Pico Electronics.  Back then, homes contained relatively few electronic devices.  Things like computers and switching power supplies were barely on the horizon.  There was very little to interfere with X10 powerline communication in an average home, and those early BSR modules worked pretty well.

Fast-forward a few decades.  Our homes are becoming filled with more and more electronic devices.  We have computers, media systems, flat-panel televisions, electronic gaming systems, electronically-controlled major appliances, and compact fluorescent lights.  Many of these new devices incorporate switching power supplies.  The AC powerline environment has vastly changed, but the X10 protocol has remained the same.  Because of this, X10 devices don’t always work correctly “out of the box”.

Some people quickly throw in the towel and criticize X10 devices for being junk.  Actually, they are the same devices that worked very well when they were developed several decades ago.  All we have to do today to achieve that same level of reliability is to provide a similar environment for their powerline communications.  Below is an overview of the steps to be taken to achieve reliable X10 operation.  Other documents will go into each of these steps in much greater detail...

Read Jeff's articles (and my FAQs) and you'll have a better picture of what's really going on... There are PLENTY of non-X10 Staff folks here ready, willing and able to help you out! 

Thanks for your support (I think). In the future, please do not alter the structure of my posting by altering color, font, font size, etc. These things do not make the point more clearly, just like adding more exclamation points at the end of a sentence does not change the meaning of a single exclamation point.

[dave w]

I have read all I can handle so now I will write. All of this so-called "help" is moot.  Every posting which is meant to tell me why my Mini-Controller and Lamp Modules suddenly stopped working is simply meant to make me feel stupid. 

Then why are you posting again?

I'm told here that I'm just an idiot because I don't understand how it works. I shouldn't have to! The product is sold in the store as "plug it in and it works!"

I bet the computer you use wasn't advertised as being susceptible to viruses, mal-ware, worms, spam, pop-ups, trojan horses, etc. etc. etc. but it is. A decade ago, these were not something you had to worry about, but now you do. And YOU purchase additional software, surge supressors, services,  and take precautions to prevent such problems from getting into your computer. I bet you don't jump up and down and rant about that.

It is the same with X10, when the system was designed, 2 plus decades ago, electrical noise was not a problem, but it is now. Therefore if you want to continue to use X10 you DO have to put some effort in it. Just as you now have to put some effort in protecting your computer even though Dell, HP, Gateway, did not advertise or advise you of that fact.

Same point with your absurdity of beaming your face and voice to your friend in France. Have you ever had a call drop? Can you do this "France" feat when driving through a tunnel or in a rain storm ? All technology has limitations, X10 also. Deal with it by:

1. following the recommendations and advice that can be found in this forum. It should not make you feel like an idiot anymore than following recommendations of how to get rid of the Sasser worm on your computer. You don't have to be an electrical engineer to understand terms like "electrical noise" anymore than I need to be a computer engineer to understand that "spam" doesn't necessarily go on bread.

or

2. Switch to a form of remote control / home automation that is far more immune to noise and phase coupling problems, such as "Z-Wave" or "Insteon". You have a small system so this would be easy and economical to do.

But DON'T thumb your nose at the forum members who are trying to help,  then dictate what you will and will not do, what you do and do not expect,etc.   and then expect the volunteers to spoon feed you solutions in 17 words or less.

BTW you say nothing has changed in the house when the lights refused to dim, is there anything running in the house like; microwave, washer, fluorescent lights, television, cell phone charger plugged in to an outlet it is usually not plugged in to? etc. Look for appliances that are on when the lights don't work, or things that are plugged in to outlets they normally are not plugged into.

Have nice day 

[gil shultz]

Good Morning,

I will give you a big hint, being an electronics engineer may save a few bucks on the modules but it cost a lot of time and money to get to that point.  I have learned that you cannot mediate a problem until you understand it.  The sad thing is that every time something on the network changes it can and will effect everything on the network.  In your case it appears that you have other people on the secondary of the same power transformer. This will definitely complicate things as you have no control over part of it.  Remember that your power system is a power network that is being used to carry signals it was never designed for.  Following is a quick explanation of what is happening.  It is not complete nor does it cover all aspects and or combinations.  Also remember the network in your domicile is different then mine and all others are different from each other as well.  There is no one solution.

The problem you mention is a very complex one.  Assuming all the equipment is operating properly we know by definition that the signal is modulated on the power line at 120 KHz at the zero crossing point.  This allows a usable signal of a few volts to be impressed on a line that has over 150V peak voltage.  These signals are filtered with tuned circuits hence there is the possibility of alignment problems but they get a much stronger signal in the pass band.  Good filters etc will give good results; poor filters will give marginal results.  Remember that these units are low priced and at best have marginal filtering abilities.

The unit putting the voltage on the power line (transmitter) can only put out a few volts.  The receiving unit (module) has a minimum sensitivity level for a valid signal.  If the signal level is below the minimum erratic or no function occurs.  Conversely if the signal is above the minimum the unit should operate properly.

Noise will swamp the front end of the receiving unit decreasing or eliminating its ability to receive and disseminate a valid signal. Noise is typically generated by an outside source.

The carrying media (power wiring) was never intended to handle low frequency RF (Radio Frequency) signals not was it designed to block them. The solution is to get enough good signal to the module so it can perform properly.  Solving this gets complicated.

Attenuation of the signal is the proper way of saying the signal level is reduced.  There will always be some attenuation of the signal in any normal system.  The trick is to minimize the attenuation or at least keep it low enough so a good signal can get through. 

There are three primary things capacitance, inductance and resistance that will attenuate the signal to a non usable level.  Expect a combination of two or three of these working in conjunction to be causing the problem.

House wiring is a source of capacitance; the effect is definitely there at 120 KHz hence line length will have an effect.  The resistance in typical power wiring will have no effect.  The inductance can depend how the wire is routed and against what. 

Power transformers are designed to operate at 50 or 60 Hz; consequently they have a high inductance which will stop the 120 KHz signal.  You see this in a typical home and add a bridge between the phases to cause the 120 KHz to go around the transformer. The advantage of this is that your signals do not pass through to other systems.

AC (Alternating Current) loads such as heaters, lights etc consume AC and do not normally interfere with 120 KHz signals.  Motors may or may not depending on there design.   On the other hand electronic equipment most by design attenuates the 120 KHz signals.  This is because the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) has placed restrictions on both conducted and radiated emissions allowed on commercial and residential equipment.  Radiated emissions go through the air while conducted emissions go through the wiring.  We are concerned with conducted emissions when working with X10.

Look at the cord that connects the video from your monitor to your computer.  There is a swelling of some type near one or both of the plugs.  This normally contains ferrite which attenuates high frequency signals.

Electronics needs DC (Direct Current) to operate internally.  This comes from a power supply of some type.  In bygone years most power supplies were built with a 60 HZ input transformer which isolated the unit from the power line (120 KHz as well). Depending on the transformer design many of these were not a problem.

Then came transformer less electronics such as TVs, these use higher frequencies which have to be isolated from the power line.  The easiest way was to attenuate them.  The attenuators were cheep but efficient and would kill a broad range of frequencies including 120 KHz signals.  These do not pay any attention to the source of the signal they just attenuated them; this is consistent across just about all power supplies.

The cost of energy has kept increasing to the point energy conservation is important.  The best way to save energy is to use less.  The original power supplies at best could get an efficiency of 50%.  The transformer less designs was approaching the 70% efficiency range. This is not good enough today so the switch mode power supplies have become popular.  These are typically better then 95% efficient.  These use high frequency designs and power MOSFETs (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effects Transistor).  The MOSFETs can switch in the Megahertz range, and generate lots of high frequency noise.  Consequently the line attenuators are much better and also attenuate the 120 KHz even more.
 
This is a short and simple explanation of what may be causing the problem; it is not an explanation of how to solve it, that is your job. The problems can and sometimes do get much more complicated then what I have covered her.

Good Luck

Gil Shultz

[dave w]

I think Charles is long gone.

[TakeTheActive]

I think Charles is long gone.

Just another...

Register -> R-A-N-T -> Retreat...

...who momentarily stopped by to " blow off steam ". OBVIOUSLY, s/he wasn't interested in any solution...


Name:              Charles Bejarano
Posts:             3 (0.027 per day)
Position:          Newbie
Post rating:       +0/-0
Date Registered:   2007-03-17, 03:11:39
Last Active:       2007-03-17, 22:15:53

[Brian H]

Take; Looks like you nailed that one.

[dave w]

Yeah, I was just trying to save "Gil" some effort. He has been contributing some well intentioned advice to posts that are months old.

[KDR]

The nice thing is that even though the origanal poster may be long gone it will benefit many here now and even more who haven't joined yet. Keep up the good work gil shultz

^{----------------KDR}

[Boiler]

The nice thing is that even though the origanal poster may be long gone it will benefit many here now and even more who haven't joined yet. Keep up the good work gil shultz

^{----------------KDR}

I agree, nice work and a lot of effort.  Would it be appropriate to separate this into a sticky (or incorporate into an existing one)?  There is a lot of good information here.  I hate to see it get buried with new posts asking the same basic questions.

[essp2003]

Please remember guys, you are all top level guru knowledge levels. His feedback is what 'normal' people think.
If you can bridge the gulf of understanding to normal people, then more people would be interested.

For example, an X10 instruction that tells you how to screw device fixture into wall board only is uneeded.
Instead, there needs to be a one sheet 'map' of the whole process. Then each component could go in more details
as to what could give you problems, like filters, common hz ranges, etc.. and suggested reference points where to begin searching.

Wireless systems with invisible workings and unknown tools is impossible to get started. It just requires too much time invested for non-techncical people.
And it costs too much for many people to have a system installed for them that requires constant attention down the road. And if you expect soimeone to buy $100 of devices to get lost, I can pretty much guarantee it will just piss most users off.

SO... since you are developing systems for X10, you might want to consider constructing about 4 graphic flow sheets that show critical events most systems require and common problems run into. Then it would start the mental mapping instantaneously and increase the learning curve greatly. If X10 is made in China, we all know their instructions are rarely worth the time reading. These could be pinned at the top of the forum page and elevate the forum development into systems without rehashing the same basics for every interested poster (and then lose them in the process). The average poster is a target audience I would think you would want to capture. X10 ads get them here, and now a little organized thought patterns after all the flashing X10 ads may keep them here longer. JUST remember, many people may spend 4 to 8 hours trying to make sense of all the flashing ads with popups coming on the screen ever 5 seconds before they finally get to the forum here. Every time you hit a product button you want to see, it makes you go through several pages of exaclty what you just went through over again, making you forget what you are looking for hitting popups every 5 seconds! For advertising, its the most dogmatic assinine marketing thought process I've ever seen, bar none, like maybe communist propoganda. At least that's my opinion verified by the average user retention, as well as all of your common perceptions about the average users   

[gil shultz]

Good Evening,

It is interesting to see that my useless posting was a bad use of my time.  That decision cannot be made by one for all.  For this being an old question and the original person who posted it being gone there sure are a lot of replies and a lot more people have read it.  Did I waste my time, I cannot make that decision, the people that glean information from this will. Did they understand what I stated, many probably did not, some did and some learned a bit.  It is my believe that if you understand signal attenuation you can resolve over 50% of the problems; if you call it something else you simply do not understand it.

For me the instructions etc are nice and yes I do read them, I believe in the RTFM (Read The Flipping Manual) axiom.   I personally would get maybe 50 times the benefit if the schematics were also available but most of the people using X10 could not read them much less fully understand what is on them.  Understanding the basic principals makes troubleshooting a lot less work.  Yes there are some good schematics available on the web but not for all modules.

Did I waist my time, I do not think so!
Gil Shultz