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[x10_code_warrior]

Ok, I have the AM466 and it works flawlessly except when I plug in a digital ballast for a MH light that is part of the exterior lighting.  As soon as the ballast is plugged in to the am466 (well..  within 5 seconds) it will turn on (you hear the CLICK) and direct power to the ballast.  I am really hoping we can defeat this issue because the MH lights are required and are a key ingredient to my x10 security package. 

For testing purposes I tried a core-and-coil ballast to the same light/appliance module and it works flawlessly.  For those of you that may reccomend I just switch back to using core and coil ballasts please note the digital ballasts were a very expensive upgrade and use aprox. 30% less electricity than the old core and coil style.  If it comes between x10 and the electronic ballasts..  x10 has gotta go.

False signals, I dont think so..  unless they can come from the unpowered ballast??  I have a pretty intermediate understanding of electricity and its hard for me to see how that would happen.  I am super happy with all other x10 stuff but its this one issue that is going to make or break it..  is there a different module I could use?  Anything I could do?  I have tried multiple am466's in this scenario and they all did the same thing so I doubt it is a defective unit. 

Please help!

[x10_code_warrior]

I promise I looked thru the FAQs for hours before posting this but sure enough just a bit after my post I found it...

Why does my Lamp or Appliance Module turn on immediately after being turned off?

Why does a low-wattage light connected to my Lamp or Appliance Module flicker after being turned off?
[edit]
Answer

This is usually caused by the lamp or appliance being controlled by the X10 module. There are components in X10 modules that detect the switching of the physical switch on the controlled device (fluorescent lamps are common culprits). With certain devices, false signals are generated (usually from a dissipating charge), which trigger the local control feature in the module. To fix this problem, you can plug a cube tap (plug splitter) into the Module, and then plug a 7 Watt night light into the same Module along with the offending light/appliance.

[x10_code_warrior]

ok...  damn it..  this is getting old...

so now the module works correctly, and turns on and off correctly..  but the electronic ballast will not turn on via the controls..  the night light will..  but the electronic ballast must some how be getting duped by the trickle current getting thru the controller so it wont turn on..  ugh!!! 

[Brian H]

Thanks for the information on the ballast. The Local Control thing; as you found is well known. I have never seen the small bulb stop an electronic ballast not work with a small bulb in parallel.
We have seen noise stop the X10 signals from turning one back off, but you indicated it was going on and off.

[TakeTheActive]

so now the module works correctly, and turns on and off correctly..  but the electronic ballast will not turn on via the controls..  the night light will..  but the electronic ballast must some how be getting duped by the trickle current getting thru the controller so it wont turn on..

How about (thinking out loud):

• Disabling the Local Control Sense Current on the AM
   - Usually, adding the 7-watt nightlight on a cube tap solves the 'Local Control' problem for the non-technical that don't want to 'open the box and dig into the guts'. If you still feel that there's 'trickle current', experiment with increasing the wattage of the bulb on the cube tap. If you still have a problem with a 100 watt tungsten bulb, I might start looking elsewhere for the answer.
  
  
• Replacing the AM with a Universal Module, ~6-12V (IIRC) Coil Relay w/120VAC Contacts, handy box w/duplex outlet
   - If it comes down to total isolation, PHYSICALLY separating the MH electronic ballast(s) from X10 via a relay will definitely eliminate any 'Local Sense Current'. Set the UM to 'CONTINUOUS' so it will HOLD the relay closed after the X10 ON goes away.
  

[For anyone else, besides me!, unfamiliar with the MH abbreviation.]

Metal Halide (MH)

A new family of lamps is made by varying the gases inside the discharge bulb. MH lamps have very good CRI (75 to 85) and are the standard choice for demanding lighting applications such as athletic fields, indoor arenas, landscape lighting, and recently, using low wattage varieties, a replacement for halogen lights and a ideal source for remote source applications.

[x10_code_warrior]

Ok super thanks for the advice..  let me see...

I am really interested about "want to 'open the box and dig into the guts'"..  can you give me any clue how to do that?  I promise I am not electrically stupid and may have already cracked the case on one of the modules by the time you read this.  This would be the most cost effective solution to my problem. 

About the trickle current, I have tried everything up to a moderately high powered appliance to cancel out the trickle current but it still fools with the electronic ballast which has a built in light failure circuit that stops trying to fire based on the failure to fire with trickle current.  My solution that I came up with is similar but a little more robust than the Universal module, which has low current potential (not good for high drawing exterior lighting). 

Ok, a little more background, the lights I am trying to install will be wired into the attic and mounted outside underneath the roof deck for lighting of the yard at night.  This light is necessary as the people who don’t have them in my neighborhood are frequently robbed.  Somehow, criminals seem to melt like the wicked witch of the west underneath the high powered lighting left on when its dark so that is my number one priority in home security as I hope you can understand.  The issue is controllability of these lights, I have found that the light/dark sensors hold these lights on for hours longer than they need to be..  i.e. they come on when the sun is still up and don’t turn off until 10am or so..  not very efficient.  So..  timers are the next best thing, but timers need to be changed every once and a while as the seasons change or if someone stays in my guest bedroom where one of the lights will be right outside of the window more or less.  This would involve crawling up into the attic to mess with the timers on a regular basis..  that would SUCK. 

So these are my motivations to make this work.  I have found out too by forcing the lights to start (unplugging and plugging back into controller once controller is already on) that they are (big surprise) noise generators or signal suckers bad enough to prevent all x10 signals on the designated circuit.  The "quick fix" to this being perhaps a noise canceller plug-in module is off limits because they are rated at only 5amps and these lights are too close to that to be comfortable to me.  I found a 15amp rated canceller on eBay from some random guy but he only has one left. 

I think I will try plugging the x10 appliance modules into a separate circuit and using relays to close the lighting circuits like these: http://www.smartcart.com/bobglenn/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=ILS120ON

I have verified that x10 signals are still received on adjacent circuits even with the ballasts in operation which leads me to believe this solution is viable. 

Any comments??

[Brian H]

Try looking here for some mods.
The Jumper stops the Local Current from triggering the module. The Cut Diode stops the current,but sometimes the module still false triggers.
I did both the jumper and diode.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm

[TakeTheActive]

...I am really interested about "want to 'open the box and dig into the guts'"..  can you give me any clue how to do that?

ADVANCED SEARCH / READ MY FAQ on: 'Local Control' 'Current Sense' 'Ido's Site' 'Cut Trace' 'Remove diode'   Easy Peasy...

...My solution that I came up with is similar but a little more robust than the Universal module, which has low current potential (not good for high drawing exterior lighting).

The UM only needs to power the COIL of the Heavy Duty 120VAC relay. I've been using an AM to control a 120VAC Coil relay for years. Whatever you have handy in the JunkBox, right?

...The issue is controllability of these lights, I have found that the light/dark sensors hold these lights on for hours longer than they need to be..  i.e. they come on when the sun is still up and don’t turn off until 10am or so..  not very efficient.  So..  timers are the next best thing, but timers need to be changed every once and a while as the seasons change or...

Install a PR511 on the side of your house getting the most sun year-round (I have mine facing West). DON'T wire it up per the instructions, but use a separate WS467 for the lamps and tape off the Blue (IIRC) 120VAC from the internal relay. Adjust the light/dark sensitivity control whichever direction allows DUSK or DAWN (it's dawn for me) to operate via a MACRO instantly and DUSK with a variable delay (built into the MACRO). You use the +1, +2, ...+8 switches to FEED your CM11A or CM15A.

Result: Evening lights come on at 'appropriate' light level year-round (30 minute delay). Daily DUSK operations occur at dusk (no delay). No timers, no settings, no DST - the *ONLY* problem is when a storm is occurring and it gets DARK during mid-day. The evening MACRO runs and you have to manually cancel it. For me, not a biggie for all the automation it provides.

...I have found out too by forcing the lights to start (unplugging and plugging back into controller once controller is already on) that they are (big surprise) noise generators or signal suckers bad enough to prevent all x10 signals on the designated circuit...

ADVANCED SEARCH the Archives for posts from JeffVolp and his 100's of CFLs in ceiling cans. IIRC, each one is wired: 120VAC -> In-Line AM -> Filter -> CFL. Costs a few bucks more, but it works. Read his EXCELLENT TUTORIALS too!

...a noise canceller plug-in module is off limits because they are rated at only 5amps and these lights are too close to that to be comfortable to me...

What's the current for each individual fixture?

Any comments??

Always...

[JeffVolp]

ADVANCED SEARCH the Archives for posts from JeffVolp and his 100's of CFLs in ceiling cans.

Not 100's - more like a couple of dozen in the ceiling cans.

Jeff

[x10_code_warrior]

wow awsome responses...

I will give the 'cut trace' and 'remove diode' a shot on one of the modules...  but that still wont fix the problem with line noise as soon as they come on preventing the "off" command to get back to it. 

On the UM..  I was thinking you were talking about using an additional relay..  in affect that’s what I am going to do as I just ordered some pre-fab relays like I had listed above..  Call me crazy but whenever I can feasibly get out of having to fabricate anything anymore I take the easy way out.  There was a time when I would willingly spend more money to make something myself just to prove I could…  but those days are long gone 

 QUOTE: Install a PR511 on the side of your house getting the most sun year-round (I have mine facing West). DON'T wire it up per the instructions, but use a separate WS467 for the lamps and tape off the Blue (IIRC) 120VAC from the internal relay. Adjust the light/dark sensitivity control whichever direction allows DUSK or DAWN (it's dawn for me) to operate via a MACRO instantly and DUSK with a variable delay (built into the MACRO). You use the +1, +2, ...+8 switches to FEED your CM11A or CM15A.

-   thanks..  I am in the baby steps phase of my x10 playing but I have absorbed your method and may use something very similar…  I will admit when I ordered the first round of products the website had me fully believing that I was getting a rock solid product with little to no user intelligence necessary…  I already have too many other stupid projects…  but you know I cant resist a good technological challenge and nobody else I know has a system like this..  so I am saddling up for the ride. 

On the last two items..  The filter for the cfls is a 5A module as well correct?  The amperage of the lights I will run is 5A…  see what I mean about too close for comfort?  It would be one thing if they were like an air compressor..  on and off once or twice a week for 5-10 min..  but these lights will be on 10hrs a day everyday..  not something I want to play max ratings with but then again I am unfamiliar with the internals of the noise filter or what they can “really” handle.

In the end..  I have the relay boxes on the way that are plug and play signaled by 120v which will come from the appliance module..  I still see as the least possible problematic solution with the greatest chance for success..  noting that brian H said he still gets false triggers with the diode and jumper mod.  The end result should be about as bullet proof as it gets but I may install noise filters anyways..  the only issue I have with noise filters is how many I will need…  I’m like an electronics super nut and I have so many toys that could generate problems..  but as of yet only these ballasts cause problems and only when the module is plugged into the same circuit as the ballasts. 

Thanks again and I will post results when the relays come in.

[Brian H]

Some have had good luck with the noise by adding a filter to the output side of the module for noise. There are higher power filters if you think you need them. I have a 10 amp one on my APC BX1000 UPS as 5 amps was too close for my liking.
Smarthomes 1626-10 is a 10 amp unit. The ACT AF120 is a 15 amp one. The ACT also has a user replaceable fuse if you overload it. The Smarthome has an internal 10 amp fuse and I didn't see one in the X10 Filters.
Many Automation web sites and EBay sellers have assortments of all kinds of goodies.

[JeffVolp]

The filter for the cfls is a 5A module as well correct?  The amperage of the lights I will run is 5A…

The small Leviton 6287 in-line filter is rated at 5A, but that is a LOT of CFLs.  You use the actual current, not equivalent light output to calculate the load current.  The 60 watt n:vision CFLs say .2A.  However, it is wise to partition your circuits so there cannot be an overload if the CFLs are replaced by incandescents.

Remember, the filter must be installed on the load side of your X10 switches.  Most X10 dimmer switches will not comfortably deliver more than 5A.

Jeff