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[hmseiden]

Hi All,
First post here. I have had an X10 system in place for five years and this is the first time I'm experiencing any trouble. Wonder if you have some suggestions to fix this beyond what I can think of.

I have several lights on the dimmable switches using tungsten lamps using model WS12A, in one particular case with a companion switch plate WS-14A. It is set up on channel A-4 now (it was originally on A5 where the same thing occured). I use the most simple remote control scheme- HR751 module, HR12A hand controllers. I do find much less frequently that other channels (A-1, B-1) do come on. No other channels are affected however. This problem has been ongoing for three weeks and only happens in the evening or overnight.

Recently I installed a CF outdoor light not on the remote control (uses light sensors for sundown/sunrise light control) and we replaced our AC system with a more efficient newer unit (Trane). One of these changes I feel is now causing the above channel to come on over night intermittently. The AC does go into a low power mode overnight and of course the CFL lights are on then.

When the problem occurs, the lights continue to respond to remote commands whilst turning on by themselves. They never turn off by themselves. I conclude that a particular combination of frequencies gets into that particular branch of wiring and not generated through the control module. See if you agree from the tests I made below. If you have any other suggestions please advise.

I have tried the following:
- install a load-side noise filter (Lutron) on the CFL lights so they don't produce noise back into the house wiring.
- removed the control module from the wall overnight as a test to see if the problem quits. It did not.
- changing the channel for the offending lights. Curiously the channel I moved the lights to in this test (A5->A4) has another switch module on the same channel which does not turn on by itself.

Henry

[Boiler]

Henry,

Welcome to the forum.  From what you've posted, you have some pretty good background with X10 and you've taken some logical steps to isolate your problem.  Lights that come on (or go off) by themselves can be a lot of fun to track down.  This problem is normally associated with significant hair loss on the part of the troubleshooter. 

You've already identified two changes to your home system (addition of CFL and a new A/C compressor). Unfortunately, I (we) could use a bit more information about your system configuration.

I use the most simple remote control scheme- HR751 module, HR12A hand controllers.

I'm not familiar with the HR751 (and didn't get any hits with Google).  Is this a automation controller similar to the CM15a.  Could you have meant a TM751 transceiver?

- install a load-side noise filter (Lutron) on the CFL lights so they don't produce noise back into the house wiring.

Your addition of a load side filter to the CFL circuit is a good one.  However I'm again not familiar with the Lutron models.  Is it possible that these were intended for a different range of frequencies (i.e. they are allowing noise to pass though in the X10 range).

removed the control module from the wall overnight as a test to see if the problem quits. It did not.

Removed the control module overnight - which control module (HR751?)?

changing the channel for the offending lights. Curiously the channel I moved the lights to in this test (A5->A4) has another switch module on the same channel which does not turn on by itself.

Can you determine if these devices are on different 120V phases?  You may have a situation where one phase has a significant amount of noise (CFL circuit) with the other being clean.

Do you have a phase coupler (active or passive) installed?

Sorry - a lot of questions without any answers.  We'll try to work on that.

[JeffVolp]

Here are a few other things to check:

1)  The "A" code is probably the most used.  If a neighbor on the same utility transformer is also using X10, it is possible that commands are coming in from outside your house over the powerline.  Try moving to a different housecode.

2)  It is also possible that a wireless command could be coming in from outside your house if you have a X10 RF link.  Again, try a different housecode.

3)  I have seen noise from multiple compact fluorescent lights beat together, and simulate X10 signals.  But, this should not be an issue if you have Lutron X10 filters installed on all your CFLs.  As an experiment, you might try removing all CFLs to see if the problem goes away.

4)  Unexpected commands have been reported coming from motion detectors with failing batteries.  Possibly other wireless remotes can do the same thing.  If you have wireless X10 products, it may be worth checking the batteries.

5)  I don't think anyone has reported a problem coming from an A/C unit.  However, the XPNR and Leviton 6289 noise reducers can help with noise like that.

6)  I recall a report about noise being produced by a photoelectric sensor.  You might try removing that bulb or just taping over the sensor to keep it full on as an experiment.

Good luck, and please report back what you find.

Jeff

[Dan Lawrence]

That's interesting about housecode A.   I've been using A for lights in the Living Room, Bathroom and Bedroom since I was introduced to X10 back in CP-290/DOS days and I've never had an interference problem from a neighbor's system. I'm apparently the only X10 user on the block.

[Boiler]

Here are a few other things to check:
1)  The "A" code is probably the most used.  If a neighbor on the same utility transformer is also using X10, it is possible that commands are coming in from outside your house over the powerline.  Try moving to a different housecode.

Yep, neighbors on either side of me with X10 systems (same transformer).  They keep chasing me around to different house codes (I probably give them fits as well).  If I wasn't so cheap, I'd install a whole house filter on the neutral.

2)  It is also possible that a wireless command could be coming in from outside your house if you have a X10 RF link.  Again, try a different housecode.

Yes again.  I've reverted back to using the CM15a as the only RF transceiver.  Since you can't completely shut off RF reception on a housecode, I'm constantly logging my neighbors RF remotes (housecodes A and B).  Those 4 battery UR74a remotes have quite a range.

6)  I recall a report about noise being produced by a photoelectric sensor.  You might try removing that bulb or just taping over the sensor to keep it full on as an experiment.

That would be me again (just lucky I guess).  Triac oscillating in my post lamp photoelectric sensor.  Didn't track it down until it tripped the GFI.

[hmseiden]

Your addition of a load side filter to the CFL circuit is a good one.  However I'm again not familiar with the Lutron models.  Is it possible that these were intended for a different range of frequencies (i.e. they are allowing noise to pass though in the X10 range).

Sorry. It's a Leviton #6287 5A Universal Block.

which control module

TM751

Can you determine if these devices are on different 120V phases?  You may have a situation where one phase has a significant amount of noise (CFL circuit) with the other being clean.

The Noise Block did nothing. The AC is 220 split phase. I wil try to scope it and see how much noise there is.

Do you have a phase coupler (active or passive) installed?

No.

[hmseiden]

I am also trying turning off a component of the system that seems to be a culprit- an ultrasonic air cleaner. I can disable that easily enough to confirm or deny that as being the cause. We'll see if the channel gets interference.

As to the theory that some other neighbor is on my house code and channel, the problem and what I'm seeing does not match to an actual user. Most people are asleep at 5AM when the light turns on. It wakes me up so I'm thinking more like it's a noise or interference, not people generated.

Henry

[JeffVolp]

The Leviton 6287 will block CFL noise from getting to the powerline when installed correctly.  Since it didn't help with this problem, it means the cause is not those CFLs.

I missed the fact that the light is coming on at 5AM.  If all your CFLs are off at that time, they can't be the problem.

5AM is interesting, though.  That is about the time our irrigation system turns on.  Also, we have some ventilation fans that bring in the cooler air before sunrise.  Just because people aren't up doesn't mean that automation systems are not sending X10 commands.

If it turns out your ultrasonic is the cause, it could also be isolated with a filter.

Jeff

[hmseiden]

The CFL's are on though they are being filtered, as the lights are on a dusk to dawn photosensor- outside lights.
 

The ultrasonic is switched off now and I'll see if that helps the problem. What's the best way to isolate the entire air handler? It's 240VAC breakered at 60A.
 

[JeffVolp]

Well, if the problem persists, you could swap those CFLs to incandescents for a test.  However, they are not likely the cause  because they are isolated with the 6287 filter.

Large induction motors should not generate electrical noise like the universal motors used in small appliances and power tools.  However, if there is noise coming from that large unit, the XPNR or Leviton 6289 shunt filters are really the only practical way to reduce noise coming from high current loads.

Jeff

[Boiler]

Henry,
It sounds as if you are trying all the "right" things (filters, disabled rf, disabled ultrasonic filter). 

However, per Jeff's post, you haven't eliminated conducted X10 (external).  Like Jeff, my neighborhood has a lot of irrigation (and x10) activity around 5:00 AM. 

You could try switching house codes to see if the symptoms change.

[steven r]

...I was introduced to X10 back in CP-290/DOS days and I've never had an interference problem from a neighbor's system. I'm apparently the only X10 user on the block.

Ditto on the CP290 and never having a neighbor interference problem. I think I even saw the antique a few months ago. I don't think I've ever had a neighbor that has any idea what X10 is. For that matter the only person I've ever known personally to use X10 was a roommate. He left his BSR X10 timer model number TC262 for me when he moved.

[hmseiden]

Today it was 4:48A when I first noticed it. I may have to switch all of controls, or scope it, or add filters. The strange part is I haven't had any problems until the AC, it isn't always one channel, and the one channel most affected still was affected when I changed the particular light from A5 to A4 (on the same house code). See previous reports.
 

[-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)]

Today it was 4:48A when I first noticed it. I may have to switch all of controls, or scope it, or add filters. The strange part is I haven't had any problems until the AC, it isn't always one channel, and the one channel most affected still was affected when I changed the particular light from A5 to A4 (on the same house code). See previous reports.
 

Assuming your new AC unit came with a new programmable set-back thermostat, you might want to check the times on the thermostat.  Did it perhaps kick the AC on at around that time?

[Boiler]

Henry,
Assuming your A/C unit isn't the culprit, here's another theory.

You have a noise maker (CFL's or other) on one phase of your powerline.  Since you don't have a phase coupler (assumption?) much of this noise isn't being communicated to the opposite phase.  When your A/C kicks in, it effectively becomes a phase coupler and the noise begins causing problems.

I just noticed something from your original post:

...Recently I installed a CF outdoor light not on the remote control (uses light sensors for sundown/sunrise light control)...

Is the light sensor that you're referring to a X10 sensor or a built in (fixture mounted) photoelectric sensor?

Photoelectric sensors and CFL's do not play well together.  The output stage of the sensor (triac) can oscillate like mad with a CFL load.  I'm not sure that a filter will correct this.  Other forum members may have direct experience(??).