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[Savage223]

In another topic in this particular board I posted about my experience with the CM15 ActiveHome interface.  I am re-evaluating my current set up and am looking for some advice on addressing the motion sensors, Socket Rockets, Eagle Eye sensors, and door and window sensors.  I'm hoping this will answer a number of questions in one location, as I spent well over an hour just looking for one issue on the board here.  I still have not found a comprehensive evaluation of items like the Motion Sensors, which I've read need more than one address per sensor to work correctly.

Here is what I have:
(1) CM15A / ACTIVE HOME PRO W/USB INTERFACE
(1) DS700E SECURITY CONSOLE W/DIALER
(5) LM15A SOCKET ROCKETS
(10) LAMP MODULES
( MS10A MOTION DETECTORS
( DOOR/WINDOW SENSORS
(4) EAGLE EYE MOTION SENSORS
(2) CR12A SCANPAD REMOTES
(2) KEYCHAIN SECURITY REMOTES
(2) NINJA / CAM CONTROLLER REMOTES
(2) B/W CAMERAS
(2) COLOR CAMERAS

I need 7-8 motion sensors hooked to my security console.
I need 3-4 door/window sensors hooked to my security console.
I need control over the socket rockets and lamp modules via the PC.
The Eagle Eye sensors and the corresponding quantity of socket rockets will be programmed on a completely different house code- and used only as motion sensing lights or control over one or two cameras.

Now, if I understand everything I've read about these various devices, I'm approaching (or have already exceeded) the maximum capacity for modules/units in my system.  I believe this to be the case due to the quantity of statements repeating what I have never "officially" read in the X10 literature or site: that motion sensors take up two addresses in the system.  This effectively means that I can only use about half of what I've purchased, if I expect to use my security console.  (Only 16 channels available.  I NEED a few motion and a few door.)

What do you think?

I'm guessing that I'll have to program odds or evens for my motion sensors.  Call them HC "B" because I want to use A1 as a notification that I have a unit that reset.  So:
B01 = Porch MS10A Motion Sensor
B02 = Intentionally blank due to forum suggestions.
B03 = Kitchen MS10A
B04 = Blank...
B05 = Dining Room MS10A
B06 = Blank...
B07 = Living Room MS10A
B08 = Blank...
B09 = Bedroom MS10A
B10 = Blank...
B11 = Bedroom 2 MS10A
B12 = Blank...
B13 = Basement (North) MS10A
B14 = Blank...
B15 = Basement (South) MS10A
B16 = Blank....

As you can see, motion sensors ONLY take up my addresses, and I could actually use two more.  (I know this seems very excessive, but I do have my reasons, not the least of which is that there is a door with exterior access in every room.)  I need the ability to see where an intruder has been, among other reasons, basically.

Now, this is fine, except for two things.  The first is vibration.  The traffic at my location frequently causes enough for false MS10A signals.  I don't necessarily want to rely on these as security triggers long-term, until I can tell for certain if this is what is happening, or if it is a false signal or other issue.  (I have had so many "little" problems that it is exceedingly difficult to repeat results and learn what SHOULD be a plug and play system.)

At this point, I cannot add in the door/window sensors as security triggers, at all.  If I go the route of using these as the security devices instead of the MS10A's- programming the security console to "hard" devices like doors- all is good, except for a 40% chance of entry (commonly cited) through a window.

I bought the system with the understanding that it had 16 channels (zones) available.  Am I now understanding that, in reality, there are only 8?  Or will the MS10A's or DS10A's actually use only one channel for the security remote- and that the two channels cited here in the forum are for more reliable use on the PC interface and ActiveHome?

Please give me your opinion.
The other topic:
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17788.0

[dave w]

The MS10s which are part of the X10 security sytem do not use two unit codes. Only the "xxxxeye" motion sensors (MS12 - MS16) use two codes to indicate sensed motion AND light/dark conditions. Even at that, the "Light/dark" sensing can be disabled.

[jtykal]

dave w, the "Light/Dark" sensing cannot be disabled (at least with the MS14A sensors that I use). You can select whether the primary code is sent when motion is detected at all times or only when it is dark, but my experience has been that the "+1" code is always in play.

[Puck]

Only the ActiveEye (MS16A) allows you to turn off the +1 feature.

With regards to the MS10As that the OP is using for the DS7000 security system, they do not use Unit Codes... therefore the +1 address does not apply here. There are 16 zones available and each zone can be allocated with a MS10A motion Sensor or a DS10A door/window sensor.

If you are registering them in AHP w/OnAlert as well, then you assign them a house & unit code in S/W only, but as dave w stated, you do not need to leave a space for the (non-existing) +1 address.

[Savage223]

Excellent, thanks guys!

I'll have this set up (again) this coming weekend and report what I find- especially if and when units fall off the charts with the CM15A.  (The other post.)  I'll also go into a bit more detail as to why I'm doing what I am, so that others might consider changes in similar circumstances.  I have strange requirements I'm asking the system for, and I still believe I can achieve them based on the latest responses, but the explanation might do some good.

[BVD]

Savage223,

The X10 Supervised Security System is built around a Security Console with an
automatic dialer that calls neighbors or friends in the event of a break in. Battery powered
RF Door/Window Sensors and Motion Sensors are used to trigger the alarm, with RF
Handheld and Keychain Remote controls for arming and disarming. All sensors and
remotes incorporate random digital security coding.
The system may be configured with any combination of the following items:
• Up to 8* Keychain Remotes with arm/disarm/panic and security light functions.
• Up to 8* Handheld Security Remote with arm/disarm and panic functions, and buttons
to control the security light and up to four additional X10 automation modules to
operate lights and appliances around the home.
• Up to 16* magnetic switch operated wireless Door/Window Sensors.
• Up to 16* wireless PIR Motion Sensors.
• Remote PowerHorn™ sirens.
• Additional X10 automation modules such as plug-in lamp and appliance modules and
wired-in replacement wall switches.
This manual describes the installation process for the security elements of the system,
and does not cover the additional X10 automation modules which are supplied with their
own installation instructions.
*Note: Remotes may be added in any combination up to a total of 8. Door/Window
Sensors and Motion Sensors may be added in any combination up to a total of 16.

The above is an exerp from the DS7000 instruction manual page 4. The following pages in the manual 5-9 indicate from how I read it that you can register with the security console a total of 8 remotes. You may also register a total of 16 door/window sensors or motion detectors in any combination as long as the total is 16.

In your security console you register the different devices with the console, you don't assign them a House Code and Unit Code as you do in AHP. The House Code you choose on your security console will determine the House code that is used during the install process and the system will assign the next available unit code.

Now we go to the AHP program. Bring up the room where the security device is located, from the module types on the left choose security, drag lets say a D/W sensor into the room. We will now rename it to something meaningful such as Front Door Sensor. Leave the box checked that says this module is part of a security system. You will see the word Install in large letters across the module. Click on install, another message box will appear saying waiting for trigger. Go to the front door and open it and close it. A new message box should now report module has been installed. In your DS7000 this sensor will be one of your "zones" but in AHP this sensor will be listed under security as Front Door Sensor.

If you go to tools menu in AHP and choose delete history, then choose find other computers you should see little squares, triangles, in the 16X16 matrix. If you put your mouse on one of them in the House Code column you have the security console set to it will show what device is at that address. If you are making a macro and you want to use one of your security devices you need to choose at the top of that window in the trigger area to Use Security. The dropdown selection box, since the Front Door Sensor is the only one we installed in AHP should show in the list. You do the same thing as we done before to install each of your other 15 security devices.

Here is what I have:

Security Related Items:

(1) DS700E SECURITY CONSOLE W/DIALER
( MS10A MOTION DETECTORS
( DOOR/WINDOW SENSORS
(2) KEYCHAIN SECURITY REMOTES

Active Home Pro Related Items:

(1) CM15A / ACTIVE HOME PRO W/USB INTERFACE
(5) LM15A SOCKET ROCKETS
(10) LAMP MODULES
(4) EAGLE EYE MOTION SENSORS
(2) CR12A SCANPAD REMOTES
(2) NINJA / CAM CONTROLLER REMOTES
(2) B/W CAMERAS
(2) COLOR CAMERAS

I have rearranged your list into the two categories with which you are working. The CM15A has the capabilities of addressing all House Codes, A-P, and all Unit Codes, 1-16 for a grand total of 256 addresses. We now subtract the 32 for your security system leaving you with 224 addresses available for you to use with your Active Home Pro Related Items. All of these items are placed into the room of your choice and given a House Code and Unit Code by YOU!! Remember to  stay away from the security address areas.

As Dave w stated in his reply:

The MS10s which are part of the X10 security system do not use two unit codes. Only the "xxxxeye" motion sensors (MS12 - MS16) use two codes to indicate sensed motion AND light/dark conditions. Even at that, the "Light/dark" sensing can be disabled.

So I don't think you have anything to worry about running out of addresses.

As for your false signals you might want to mount your motion sensors using a piece of sponge foam between the sensor and the surface to which you are going to attach the device. This would act as a shock absorber and the device would be less likely to false trigger due to vibration.

I don't know that I have covered all of your questions and issues but I have tried to get most of them. I do know that I am tired of typing so if you have further questions or issues please make another post.

By the way thanks for being so detailed in your initial post. You are one of very few that understand that the more information you give, the more help we can give.

I hope this helps!
Till Later,
Bob

[dave w]

dave w, the "Light/Dark" sensing cannot be disabled (at least with the MS14A sensors that I use). You can select whether the primary code is sent when motion is detected at all times or only when it is dark, but my experience has been that the "+1" code is always in play.

It can still be disabled. You just can not "un-program" the Hawkeye, you have to "hack" it. A simple operation which undoubtedly voids the warranty, but at $20 for four eyes, fairly affordable.

Remove the HawkEye front cover and wrap the photocell in black electrical tape to blind it to the light/dark condition.

The photocell is easy to spot. It is on long leads, positioned so it can see out the translucent front cover window along with the IR sensor. The IR sensor is the small metal can with a glass top, positioned so it looks out the center of the translucent window of the front housing. Do not cover it in any way, only cover the photocell. The photocell has a clear top with a clearly visible squiggly line under the top.  Once taped, the HawkEye will never transmit on the second unit code.

[jtykal]

Good to know, dave w, thanks! That is very helpful, as I am always trying to minimize unnecessary RF and PLC traffic.

[Savage223]

Thanks for your help guys!

Latest update
I wanted to re-setup everything, so I started from scratch.  I first did the following:

Reset the Security System /Dialer by removing it from the outlet, took out the battery, and waited a minute. 

(1) I set the CODE WHEELS on the SECURITY CONSOLE to E-1.  I switched to INSTALL and installed the three Keychain Security Remotes by hitting ARM.  I also installed the master Security Remote.
(2) One by one, I re-installed the door sensors, starting in a logical pattern around the house.
    (a) Side Door = Unit 1
    (b) Porch Door = Unit 2
    (c) Kitchen Door = Unit 3
    (d) Living Room Door = Unit 4
    (e) Exterior Basement Door = Unit 5
    (f) Interior Basement Door = Unit 6
    (g) Front Door = Unit 7
(3) One by one, I re-installed the MS10A Motion Sensors, in the same pattern.  Note that I did NOT hit the CODE button for all of these, but rather only thought to for the last three or so.  I don't think it makes a difference in this case, but thought I'd mention it.  If I understand the system correctly, the CODE generated is sent with a second CODE as a checksum- without both codes reporting the security system pays it no attention and reports it "dead" after 90 minutes.  (Correct?)
    (a) Back Bedroom = Unit 8
    (b) Porch Inside = Unit 9
    (c) Kitchen = Unit 10
    (d) Dining Room = Unit 11
    (e) Living Room = Unit 12
    (f) Basement South = Unit 13
    (g) Basement North = Unit 14
    (h) Master Bedroom = Unit 15

At this point,  I realized that Unit Number 1 shouldn't be used for the Security Console.  The reason is that the master Security Remote has BOTH a Security Light setting, and the ability to control four Units with the same House Code as the remote.  So, if you use Unit 1 for the Security Console, you have a redundant button on your master Security Remote- both the "Security Light" button AND the Unit 1 button on the remote will do the same thing.  Alas, I continued, considering I'd figure it all out and redo it afterwards.

So I moved on to ActiveHome Pro and the installation of the modules there. Note that I did not download the new ActiveHome at this point in the installation.  I tried it after I gave up last night, and to me it looks better...and worse.  That's yet to come.  For now, assume this is the old version, as it was.

Since the "Find Other Computers" screen in my current setup continued to show what would be inaccurate readings, I started a completely NEW file, after Clearing the Interface memory. 

The first thing I noticed was that I had absolutely no control where the various sensors were put as far as House Code.  I had thought that the House Codes attributed to the sensors when programming was a result of what the Security Console was set at when you programmed them.  This most likely happened last (first) time I installed everything, but I didn't notice it, as at the time I had no reason to go looking for it all.

Apparently, this logical deduction was completely wrong, as the modules began showing up on House Code 'N' when I installed a few and re-checked the "Find Other Computers" screen. But right from the start, even, the entire 'A' House Code was filled up with sensed RF activity.  All yellow.  I had always avoided 'A' since it is a consumer default, and likely to show up on a neighboring site if it existed.  So now I'm confused…again.

 I did NOT want the modules on HC 'N', because I had a few Modules and Sensors that showed up in N before… or some other sporadic RF that I did not want confused with the setup again.  Since I figured I was screwed with what I had in mind for setting everything up, I tried going the route of forcing the two Motion Sensors' House Codes I had been trying to install into AH-  by Editing their instance in ActiveHome.  (Right-Click.  Edit.  Change the style of product to something other than Security.  Pull the drop down box to select, revert the product selection, and roll the mouse off to the right to reveal the House Code and Unit Code pull-down fields.)

This did work, as I got two units to hit the 'E' house code; unfortunately, I could not change them back to the correct type of Sensor without losing the ability to change the HC or UC settings; and therefore could not guarantee where they were set in the end.

So I looked this time in the F2 history window, and, lo and behold: there were no E code units reporting.  Everything was reporting as an A code, despite hitting the Test button over and over, and even changing the CODE.  The fact that I had momentarily had a module installed as an 'E' house code in AH kept it there in the Find Other Computers window.  (I know these two were not a reporting door or window sensor because when I moused over them, the name was that which I had given them in ActiveHome when I added them.)

So…to try to be very patient…WTH?

Honestly.  I spent $600 on this system so far.  All of the modules have continually and properly reported to the Security Console / Dialer for over two months.  But I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why I cannot get them set up in ActiveHome.  The way that application operates, in some fashions, is an enigma.  While for others, there is true elementary and intuitive control.

For example, why in the …heck... do we not have control over where the Motion Sensors and Door / Window sensors are placed for House Code in ActiveHome??? 

From my understanding- and of what happened here, (I had the sensors programmed into an 'E' house code security console), House Code and even Unit Code are NOT part of the sensors' reporting.  They are simply being programmed into the Security Console in the order in which you install them.  The same goes, I believe, with ActiveHome. 

So say, for example, I begin to see activity on House Code F, and I have my motion sensors and door sensors installed into that House Code.  Now I want to move them to House Code G.  I can't.  (At least not without hard coding the change in the- XML I think- file...right??)  This should be better explained, and have a better way to change it rather than programming.  (Which, by the way, I am completely comfortable with doing myself if I know the syntax.)

The other explanations that are better needed is what was explained about the RF noise changing the way the Interface sees signals and decides which to pay attention to.  We should- (and most likely do, in reality, programmatically through brute force)- have control over the interface to say, "enough is enough."  Everything is sensed, and I do get some spurious signals, but the system works well- keep the threshold you've established and change no more. 

Or, some better explanation of the criteria one should use to decide how to set these codes up.  (i.e. don't pick Unit 1 for the security console, unless you want to lose a button on your security remote.)

Now that I've vented, sorry I had to, this is far more frusterating than it should be.  I am by NO means an RF, PC, integrated systems, or programming noob.  I've done a lot of these things in the past.  I am not following the logic in the overall system, or do not know enough about how these two sensors and Interface are supposed to be operating.

Any ideas here?  I know you guys have a simple answer, it just seems I cannot get a broad view of all of this, or find the specific information without hours of digging here on the forum.  Wouldn't it be better if we could Wiki these answers on the X10 Wiki?  I feel like I'm bothering you all asking questions I'd be darned surprised weren't asked before- and I know some were- but I thought I read and understood these parts.  In the meantime, I have reason to need my alarm beginning last week.  I don't have time to keep goofing around with this like a science project.  I love the challenge, and welcome it, but I really don't have the time for it right now.  I'm sorry if these are elementary issues; I just can't get this going right, and I don't consider myself stupid and think I've read all I could easily find.

And.. can anyone tell me why it matters whether a sensor is "part of the security" when you're installing it in ActiveHome?  (Why is there a checkbox here when waiting for a signal; and what happens when you check/uncheck it?)
Thanks again.

[BVD]

Any ideas here?  I know you guys have a simple answer, it just seems I cannot get a broad view of all of this, or find the specific information without hours of digging here on the forum.  Wouldn't it be better if we could Wiki these answers on the X10 Wiki?  I feel like I'm bothering you all asking questions I'd be darned surprised weren't asked before- and I know some were- but I thought I read and understood these parts.  In the meantime, I have reason to need my alarm beginning last week.  I don't have time to keep goofing around with this like a science project.  I love the challenge, and welcome it, but I really don't have the time for it right now.  I'm sorry if these are elementary issues; I just can't get this going right, and I don't consider myself stupid and think I've read all I could easily find.

And.. can anyone tell me why it matters whether a sensor is "part of the security" when you're installing it in ActiveHome?  (Why is there a checkbox here when waiting for a signal; and what happens when you check/uncheck it?)
Thanks again.

Savage223,
I know the others in these forums don't think much of taking these questions off line to solve an issue but I don't care to type that much. So I will leave it up to you. I would be glad to discuss and resolve you problems with you over the phone. I have unlimited calling in the US and Canada. I would be glad to call you if you would like to send me your number. Please send it to w8rvd@columbus.rr.comwith a subject of X10 Help Request. If you have non long distance charge type phone and would prefere to call me my number is 740-862-2616. I live in Baltimore, Ohio.
Then when we get it figured out and get you up and running you can come back to this forum and post the things we did to correct your problems in the hopes that it might help other newbies.

Hope to hear from you!
Bob Van Dyke

[Tuicemen]

 Savage223
The check mark asking if the sensor is configured in the DS7000 or not for the most part doesn't mater!
However for certain devices it allows extra options in AHP when you use them in macros.

There is a thread in the ON Alert section that explains how to specify the House code for each sensor!

The security devices use different RF codes then the Lights and appliances you controll from the console! so setting up a device in unit 1 has no baring on one or the other!

The unit number you assign the console is the unit number for the security light it uses (you can change that even after you have configured)
In fact You can change both the housecode and unit code at any time without affecting you security console sensors.

Having a background in Computer programing or logic is not an asset when it comes to X10, as many have found out!

Hope this info helps
 

[Savage223]

Savage223
The security devices use different RF codes then the Lights and appliances you controll from the console! so setting up a device in unit 1 has no baring on one or the other!

The unit number you assign the console is the unit number for the security light it uses (you can change that even after you have configured)

In fact You can change both the housecode and unit code at any time without affecting you security console sensors.

Having a background in Computer programing or logic is not an asset when it comes to X10, as many have found out!

These are things that are almost essential to know but just aren't well documented in the stock literature or Wiki... I know you work your butt off in here- both Tuice and BVD- (and 0thers) and it probably gets pretty old going over the same stuff...so thanks much!

To clarify further this Console / Remote address issue, I tried this:

Set the code to "E1" on the Console.  (Note that the SH624 Security Remote was already programmed in, though from what I read here it looks like it wouldn't matter if it were before or after.)

Set the SH624 Remote to House Code 'N', my current Control Module(s) setting.

Now, the SECURITY LIGHT button still works the module(s) I switched to E1, and,
Butons 1-4 address 'N1' through 'N4'.

Very cool.
BVD- I'll take you up on one of your offers in the very near future.  I have unlimited calling too, so if you're more comfortable talking than typing just let me know and when would be the best time to call.  (I'm also interested in knowing more about your v.a. system too, so that would be a good thing.)

Thanks guys!

[Savage223]

Tuice- I read this addressing trick and tried it before- but the fact that the address disappeared and the module had to be re-installed (test button) afterwards was unnerving. 
So once you address and install it:
(1) You edit and change to the correct module with the dropdowns,
(2) Reinstall the module by hitting test and getting the AHP confirmation that it is installed.
(3) the House code you used in the beginning sticks??

Dang- why didn't they just build addressing into sensors in AHP??
Weird and frustrating.

[Tuicemen]

Dang- why didn't they just build addressing into sensors in AHP??

Indeed!

The fact that the address dissapears is : Security devices are addressed differently (don't use housecode/unitcode combo)
Confusing for everyone 

[Savage223]

Right.  Probably a good thing really, as (if you COULD move it in AHP) it frees up the usual addresses for modules.
The problem is just in knowing.

And if I'm correct (I looked at the xml (or setup whatever the format) file for my first setup and saw two distinctly different addresses on the sensors.)   It might even have been the SDK...

..anyhow: They have to both send in unison for the trigger to be set in the control or AHP interface.