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[bpond]

Hello,

Basics - I'm new to the forum but have heard of X10 before and have installed exactly one controller in a former house.  I spent about an hour banging around searching for stuff as a guest a while ago and then registered tonight, did some more poking around, found some answers, but now need to post some questions.  Hopefully someone can point me to the next steps.

The background - we just moved and the new house has X10 and related automation products all over.  Phase coupler, HVAC, lighting, maybe home theater (can't tell for sure, but it looks like there's an IR receiver in the wall where the multimedia wiring is.).  Everything is disconnected, but "sitting there".  There is no automation software that came with the purchase, just the installed hardware.

The questions:

The HVAC controllers (6 zones) are RCS HCUXE products.  There is one forum link I can find on these products (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=13172.0).  The company website lists them as an older product (http://www.resconsys.com/products/stats/x10.htm).  Is there any reason these older products won't still work if I try to reconnect them?  Any pointers on what I need to learn to make them work?

Is there anywhere on this forum (send link please) that discusses people who set up home automation for a living and their qualifications/location?  I looked through the contractor forum and searched that forum but didn't get any hits on this topic.

Will a whole house surge protector (we do have one) cause any trouble with x10 communications?   I saw some ambivalent information about this in other posts and am wondering if there is a definitive answer out there.

What could I look for to figure out if the multimedia hardware is part of the old home automation system or just some random unrelated bits of hardware?


Thanks for any help.  Particularly pointers to more information.  I don't mind digging for myself, but have run out of immeidate ideas.

BP

[Boiler]

Hello bpond,

Welcome to the forum.

From the sounds of things, you've inherited a fairly sophisticated system.  You can help us provide information by doing some sleuthing for model numbers.  You've given us the thermostat models, but we can use additional information to figure out what type of system is installed:

• Repeater model (wired or plug-in)
• Switch model numbers
• Whole house surge protector model

You mentioned that things were disconnected.  Can you give examples?  I'd be surprised if wired in devices were disconnected.  This wouldn't meed code for sale of the home.

As you noted, your A/V system may be unrelated to the X10 install.  My bet is that it's integrated.  Could the IR receiver be part of a receiver/transmitter combo?

What is missing in all of the above is some type of system controller.  You need something to tie all these pieces together with automation rules.  Have a look around for a controller of some sort.  Don't overlook the possibility that your alarm system (ELK or Honeywell) is also the X10 controller.

This could wind up being a winding road (Beatles reference, again) - take things in small steps,

Boiler

[bpond]

Hello,

Here's what I've found.  I hope you like detail.

• 6 - RCS HVAC Control Units.  X10 E Decode.  Model # HCUXE.  Each is labeled with a zone name that matches up to one of the heating zones in the house.  These are 12vDC units with a plugfor power, a port for wires (that are no longer in place), and a phone jack input that connects to...
• 6 - x10Pro PSC05 Two-way powerline interface units that are all just hanging there.  Neither the RCS nor the PSC05 units are actually plugged in.  There is no hardware connection between the RCS units and any thermostat or zone control that I can see (and the zone controller is right there so I'd see it). 
• 2 x10 Powerhouse Power Flash interfaces.  These look like they are wired to a few different thermostats.  I have not yet traced any of these wires to know which ones are connected, but I intend to.
• 1 - ACT CR234 Phase Coupler/repeater.  This is wired in and working.
• 1 RCS TS15 Wall Display Unit (not connected to anything.  It's a 4-wire unit that just has a loose wire hanging off of it. 
• Multiple SwitchLinc remote control dimmer/transmitter switches scattered around the house.  M/N 1181. 
• A handful of x10ActiveHome motion detectors.
• 1 - Honeywell System 2000 (model # CP-9000) home security system w/fire detection.  This looks straight out of the 80s.  The previous owners did not use it, I know it is not active.
• 1 - Leviton whole-house surge protector.  Cat #51120-1.  This is wired in and working.
• And a mystery component.  I found paperwork in the house for an ELk-9100 Ultramate Heavy Duty switch, x10 activated, with building signal bridge and repeater function.  I found an image of what this should look like on Google, but I sure can't find the actual hardware anyplace.  I've looked hard near all the electrical panels, near the other x10 stuff, and near the Honeywell controller panel.  One thing I couldn't get from the pictures or the documents that I found is a sense of size.  How big is this thing?  Could this be inside some other electrical box or is it always mounted outside?

Also we have a 20kW backup generator.  Any concerns with the automation equipment if the power goes out and the generator kicks on?  I can't imagine why there would be, unless the brief outage between losing power and the generator coming back would cause some kind of system memory loss?

My tools don't show up until tomorrow with the movers, so until I can get my hands on a screwdriver I can't take the IR plates off the wall and see if I can find any model #s there.  I can live with this being a long and winding road.  I'm just hoping you or the forum can tell me which page of the map I'm on as a starting point.  Give all this stuff, where should I go from here?  Ignoring it and leaving it sit there is an option, but not one I'd like to pursue if these things can be made to work.

Thank you.

[Brian H]

Here is the ELK9100
http://www.elkproducts.com/pdf/9100-instructions.pdf

[bpond]

Thank you for the ELK link.  That is the paperwork I found and I had been to their site.  At the moment I'm searching to try to find the actual relay somewhwere in the house.  It seems to have gone missing.  From reading the docs that is a pretty heavy duty relay, so I figured it must run something with high power draw.  The house has a spa, so I am guessing it was for the spa pump/heater, but i've looked the the panel where the spa breaker is and followed the power line to the spa and I don't see the relay.  I haven't taken the circuit breaker cover off yet, so maybe it's inside the panel but if not then I think I have to say that one of the prior owners took that switch with them.

BP

[steven r]

...Also we have a 20kW backup generator.  Any concerns with the automation equipment if the power goes out and the generator kicks on?...

YES!
There has been some discussion on this issue but basically it boils down to X10 needs a pretty clean sine wave to work. Many generators don't provide this. A backup that favors more of a square wave is not good for X10 components.

[Boiler]

Hello again bpond,

I do like detail...  Unfortunately, your system is not exactly what I had envisioned. 

• 6 - RCS HVAC Control Units.  X10 E Decode.  Model # HCUXE.  Each is labeled with a zone name that matches up to one of the heating zones in the house.  These are 12vDC units with a plugfor power, a port for wires (that are no longer in place), and a phone jack input that connects to...
• 6 - x10Pro PSC05 Two-way powerline interface units that are all just hanging there.  Neither the RCS nor the PSC05 units are actually plugged in.  There is no hardware connection between the RCS units and any thermostat or zone control that I can see (and the zone controller is right there so I'd see it). 

The RCS units actually consist of three parts:

• TS16 - wall display unit.  Used to display, monitor, and manually change setpoints.
• TX16 - interface between the TS16 and the zone control panel.  Performs the actual request interface to the panel.  This unit can also interface a powerline adapter to provide X10 bidirectional control.
• Powerline interface - This is where the PSC05's come in.  The TX16 interfaces to these through the "phone jack" connection.

The PSC05 is the X10 powerline interface that allows the RCS to communicate with your controller.  Unfortunately, we haven't found a controller yet.

• 1 - ACT CR234 Phase Coupler/repeater.  This is wired in and working.

This one is a keeper.  The ACT repeaters were well respected units in their day.

• 1 RCS TS15 Wall Display Unit (not connected to anything.  It's a 4-wire unit that just has a loose wire hanging off of it. 

Not sure what the purpose of the TS15 was.  It's the forerunner of the TS16/TX16 noted above.

• 1 - Leviton whole-house surge protector.  Cat #51120-1.  This is wired in and working.

Again a keeper.  Leviton promotes the use of this unit with their line of DHC X10 units.  It should not cause a problem for X10.

At this point I'm wondering what is connected to your zone control panel.  Is the system functional?  I'm having trouble believing that someone could have sold a house with a non-functional HVAC system.

If the zone panel is the ZC6R (six zone control panel), it allows the use of conventional thermostats.  These would connect in place of the TX16 control interfaces.  Is it possible the previous owner switched back to conventional control?

Since you haven't found a controller as yet, you'll need to make a decision on how you want this system to operate.  Invest in a controller (others can provide recommendations) or put the system back and operate it manually.

Let us know if you've made any additional discoveries.

Boiler

[ggrote]

Also we have a 20kW backup generator.

20 kVA?  Holy Cow!  You could power the whole neighborhood with that thing ... or did you buy a 9000 sq ft house?  I'm still an X-10 newbie, but I've learned a thing or two about transformers, generators, switchgear, etc. over the years ... there are some good generators out there, but a 20 kVA unit with a clean sine wave would cost a fortune, so I'd definitely put a scope on that baby before firing it up to power your $4,000 home theatre system during the next outage ...

It sounds like a very interesting house that you purchased!

[bpond]

Interesting that you brought up the home theater (which I'm currently trying to design), because in addition to the quality of the signal for X10 I was worried about those components if the generator kicked on. 

I'm not ignorant of generators and transformers, but I've never yet "put a scope" on an electric signal to check it's quality.  I don't own a scope. Any advice about how to actually check the quality?

bpond

[steven r]

... I've never yet "put a scope" on an electric signal to check it's quality.  I don't own a scope. Any advice about how to actually check the quality?...

Short of a scope, which most of us don't have, I'd recommend checking the manufacture's specs even contacting them if necessary. Unless you're trying to backup everything, you might want to consider a sub circuit for the key items that are critical in a power outage and just back up that.

Power outages are rare for me so I just run a power cord to the refrigerator, computer, and ham equipment. If it should become an extended outage, I'll plug in my battery charging station as well.

[bpond]

Did some digging.  The relevant spec seems to be Waveform Deviation/Total Harmonic Content of the Wafeform.  That is specified by NEMA MG1-32, and my generator docs say it's compliant with that spec  You can download the table of contents to the 200+ page spec from www.nema.org, but the actual spec is over $200 so I'm not investing.  Does anyone happen to know if X10 components are OK if their power source is compliant with NEMA MG1-32 (MG stands for Motor / Generator, by the way).

bpond

[dave w]

Did some digging.  The relevant spec seems to be Waveform Deviation/Total Harmonic Content of the Wafeform.  That is specified by NEMA MG1-32, and my generator docs say it's compliant with that spec  You can download the table of contents to the 200+ page spec from www.nema.org, but the actual spec is over $200 so I'm not investing.  Does anyone happen to know if X10 components are OK if their power source is compliant with NEMA MG1-32 (MG stands for Motor / Generator, by the way).

bpond

If your generator is 20KW for backup home power, you do not have to worry, it will provide a clean sine wave. A $30k generator will give you power as clean as the power company unless it is very old or the speed / frequency control is faulty.  I had a 7.5 kW Onan in motorhome and X10 was very happy when it was running.

Fire it up and plug an AM radio in the generators local outlet. If it works, you are good. BTW who is the manfacturer? (Generac, Onan, etc).

[bpond]

Siemens SG020 Series with a Generac engine.  It was new in 2008 or 2007.

bpond

[bpond]

At this point I'm wondering what is connected to your zone control panel.  Is the system functional?  I'm having trouble believing that someone could have sold a house with a non-functional HVAC system.

If the zone panel is the ZC6R (six zone control panel), it allows the use of conventional thermostats.  These would connect in place of the TX16 control interfaces.  Is it possible the previous owner switched back to conventional control?

Since you haven't found a controller as yet, you'll need to make a decision on how you want this system to operate.  Invest in a controller (others can provide recommendations) or put the system back and operate it manually.

Thanks for the info.

No x10 components are connected to the zone control panel (there's one 6-zone controller plus a single zone controller, 7 total zones in the house).  The x10 units are all mounted on the wall in the right place, but are disconnected.  The zone controllers and wall thermostats are all connected to their zone pumps and thermostats, and the home HVAC works, but the system is not controllable through x10 (for now).  I think the original owners put all the x10 in, but the people we bought it from disconnected all the x10 controls.  Right now we are perfectly functional in a "manual operation" mode.  I am going to figure out how to get us to an automated or remote controllable mode.

I'm going to dig in to the Honeywell security system and see if that can be reactivated and maybe if it was the controller at some point.  I still don't really know what to look for or how to figure out if the Honeywell was used in this manner though.  If anyone has pointers on this one....

Thanks again.

bpond

[Boiler]

Hello Bpond,

Glad to here that your HVAC is functional in manual mode. 

The newer Honeywell security panels do support X10 control.  I don't know much about the older versions.  One thing in common with "communication" panels - to the best of my knowledge, they all use a separate powerline interface module. This should be similar to the PSC05 that you have on your thermostats.  Check your panel for a RS-232 connection that supports a powerline interface.

Boiler