Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Brian H]

Signal tests done on my circuit branch #20
XTBM X10 Signal Test Meter
New Revision TM751 in XTB-IIR Front Panel AC Outlet
Branch 20 has five devices on it that are normally two way devices. One RR501 and four Insteon 2456S3 ApplianceLincs. Den Floor Lamp location has two stacked on each other.  For the LM465 test I fit two in the same outlet to keep things the same as normal.

In the tests I used the Insteon 2456S3 modules that are two way. Smarthome 2001SHL one way X10 appliance modules and X10 LM465 Lamp Modules that are also one way.

Location:                                                     2456S3            2001SHL              LM465

Living Room Fireplace Left                                  2.35                 2.85                  4.75

Living Room Fireplace Right                                 1.15                 2.03                  4.65
 
Den Floor Lamp                                                 1.10                2.15                  4.50

Den TV FilterLinc Passthrough Outlet                     2.15                2.79                  4.50

Den Chair                                                         3.30                3.45                  4.95

I also did another test at the Living Room Left Outlet. 2001SHL Modules still in place.
RR501 Connected       2.85
RR501 Removed         3.31
All Modules Removed  7.71

You may notice the 2001SHL one way modules still sucked up a fair amount of signals over what the LM465 Lamp Modules did. The LM465 modules have a tuned transformer in the receiver circuit. The 2001SHL does not have a tuned transformer in the receiver circuit. It has a plain inductor where the tuned transformer would be if it was fully populated for the two way models. It looks like it is in series with the blocking capacitor to the AC line and would be broadly tuned around the X10 120KHz. Frequency. That now explains why that circuit was marginal when I replaced the X10 Appliance Modules [disliked the clunk] with the 2001SHL modules.

So module type and brand may make a difference with your installation.

[Duck69]

Brian, did you happen to test the signal strengths prior to installing the XTB-11R ?

[Brian H]

No the XTB-IIR replaced the ACT CR134 well before the XTBM was released and I finally decided to buy one.

[Brian H]

More tests done this morning.
Signal tests done on my circuit branch #20 Phase #2 of my homes circuit map.
XTBM X10 Signal Test Meter
New Revision TM751 on branch circuit #16 Phase #1 of my homes circuit map.
Dryer Outlet is about 25 feet from the breaker panel.
Branch 20 has five devices on it that are normally two way devices. One RR501 and four Insteon 2456S3 ApplianceLincs. Den Floor Lamp location has two stacked on each other.
In the tests I used the Insteon 2456S3 modules normally in use.
Tested the XTB-IIR; two Smarthome 2826B repeaters and a 2816B passive phase coupler.
XTB-IIR power removed to test the three dryer outlet devices.
No Dryer Outlet devices when testing the XTB-IIR
XTB-IIR is on Dryer Circuit at breaker box.

Location:                                                     XTB-IIR            2826B #1              2826B #2           2816B

Living Room Fireplace Left                               2.47                    0.08                       0.08               0.10

Living Room Fireplace Right                              0.90                    0.02                      0.02               0.02
 
Den Floor Lamp                                              0.95                    0.02                      0.02               0.02

Den TV FilterLinc Passthrough Outlet                 2.35                    0.08                       0.08              0.09

Den Chair                                                     3.60                    0.11                        0.12              0.13

[JeffVolp]

Wow!  That is the first time I have seen a detailed quantitative analysis like that.

A significant portion of the difference is probably due to signal attenuation between the dryer receptacle and the distribution panel.  That shows why the easy solution of plugging something into the dryer receptacle often doesn't help that much.

Thank you for providing the comparison test.

Jeff

[eagle]

Wow!

Those are convincing numbers for the XTB-IIR.

Thanks Brian.

Would you happen to have an XTB plug-in also just to see how the numbers come out using a plug-in coupler?

r,
eagle

[Brian H]

No I don't have an XTB.

[eagle]

Thanks Brian.  Just thought I'd ask.

I imagine the numbers would be comparable to your results though. 

Jeff?  Yes? No?

r,
eagle

[Brian H]

Jeff may have added information on the XTBM.
I think the 0.02 reading maybe close to the minimum as some of the tests had the X10 frequency display very low. Like 109KHz while other outlets where the expected 120KHz. I am guessing here the signal was so marginal the counter had missed some of the signals. Even though the good decoded X10 message was showing.

The passive coupler may also be a factor. The Smarthome one is a capacitor and small coil in series across the two hot lines. Some like the X10Pro XPCP has tuned transformers coupling between the phases and some depending on wiring. Can invert or noninvert the signals.

[JeffVolp]

The IIR puts out about a 30% stronger signal than the XTB because it has a beefier power stage and normally blanks the 2nd and 3rd three phase bursts.  XTBR does about 10% better than the XTB because it also blanks the 2nd and 3rd bursts.

The big difference will be a function of where the XTB is located.  If it is near the distribution panel, and paired with a good tuned-circuit passive coupler, that 30% number should hold.  If it located a long distance from the distribution panel, the readings would be lower.

Remember that signal power is relative to the square of the voltage.  So it takes 16 times as much power to produce a signal voltage that is 4 times higher.

Jeff

[JeffVolp]

Jeff may have added information on the XTBM.
I think the 0.02 reading maybe close to the minimum as some of the tests had the X10 frequency display very low. Like 109KHz while other outlets where the expected 120KHz. I am guessing here the signal was so marginal the counter had missed some of the signals. Even though the good decoded X10 message was showing.

That is exactly true.  With a full scale of 10Vpp, readings of 20mVpp are down in the mud.  And yes, it was probably missing cycles to give the low frequency reading.

BTW, I'm impressed that it was able to actually decode signals that low.  Here it gets down to about 40mVpp, but I may have more background noise than you have.

Jeff

[Brian H]

I tried a few more tests. With all the modules off of the circuit and the reading are not what I expected.
The XTB-IIR was way up there where I expected but both of the 2826B readings where about 0.40 volts. The 2816B passive actually gave slightly higher readings. I am beginning to think the repeaters maybe toast. The Initial XTBM repeater test showed about 0.67 if I caught it right.
Maybe I will try and patch the ACT CR134 into the dryer jack and see how it works.

[Brandt]

I have a 4826B repeater that is getting about the same signals as your 2826B. Of course Smarthome recommended their BoosterLinc. I will most likely get an XTB-IIR and scrap the Signalinc.  Has anyone tried an XTB-IIR with a boosterlinc to get signals even higher?

[JeffVolp]

Has anyone tried an XTB-IIR with a boosterlinc to get signals even higher?

It is not a good idea to have more than one repeater in an installation due to the likelyhood of "command ping pong", which is where the two repeaters will bounce a command back and forth between each other.  The XTB-IIR does have a mode option to break that loop, but it is best to avoid the problem entirely.

Jeff

[Brandt]

I thought the boosterlinc's were passive, as in they just take the signal as it passes through and amplifies it...