Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[dave w]

Boynton

What Brian is saying is: the controller chip in the Appliance Module senses it's solenoid driven latching relay output when changing the state of the relay, to ensure it indeed switches ON or OFF when told to.

In your scenario the chip will see no change when trying to unlatch the relay, since 120V from another appliance module will be backfeeding the output of the one being told to turn OFF (untill the last module is turned off. This will cause the AM to rapidly fire the solenoid relay two more times to get the relay contacts to change state. It stops after three tries. Since the chip programming gives up after three tries, your design may still work, it will just be noisy.

I hope your answer to my question: "Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal (ON or OFF) from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?"

If the answer is "No" you should reconsider the use of X10. It is not 100%

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

[BoyntonStu]

Boynton

What Brian is saying is: the controller chip in the Appliance Module senses it's solenoid driven latching relay output when changing the state of the relay, to ensure it indeed switches ON or OFF when told to.

In your scenario the chip will see no change when trying to unlatch the relay, since 120V from another appliance module will be backfeeding the output of the one being told to turn OFF (untill the last module is turned off. This will cause the AM to rapidly fire the solenoid relay two more times to get the relay contacts to change state. It stops after three tries. Since the chip programming gives up after three tries, your design may still work, it will just be noisy.

I hope your answer to my question: "Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal (ON or OFF) from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?"

If the answer is "No" you should reconsider the use of X10. It is not 100%

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

Thanks, I learn something new with every post.

Are we there? or are we close but no cigar?

I did not consider backfeed.

Noise is not a consideration, since the AM's will be in the garage and housed together.

Is there potential AM damage due to the extra firing pulses?

The project is to automatically turn on the house water if someone is detected.

IOW To reduce the possibility of water damage due to burst/leaking pipes, by keeping the main valve off unless we are awake and active.

Another thought:  If the appliance is plugged directly into the transceiver module are any issues listed above avoided?

[Brian H]

Older models may give different results; as X10 has done a re-engineering of many modules.

I tested two recent CFL Friendly Appliance Modules Date Code 09K48.
Different address B1 and B2.

The Appliance Modules have a sensor circuit in them to determine if they are On or Off when the command is received. So if they are in the state the command tells it to be in. It is ignored.

So if I turned On either the B1 or B2 Applance Module it went On.
The AC also fed back into the second Appliance Module and it thought it was On already. So it would never turned On. When its address was sent an On signal. The module that was Off. If sent an Off would pulse a few time trying to turn Off as it thought it was On

I retested with a late revision TM751 Tranceiver. Date Code 10E19. For the B1 address.

Findings are even stranger.
If the B2 Appliance Module is On and the B1 Tranceiver is Off. It stays off with a B1 On command, but if it is sent a B1 Off it turns On. The next Off will again turn it Off.   

With the information on what you are trying to do may help in finding a solution.

[Brian H]

Maybe if you used the Appliance Modules and Tranceiver to each control their own 120 volt AC relay.
Then each relays contacts could be in parallel to control the water valve while each module didn't see the others AC voltgage on their outlet.

[BoyntonStu]

Maybe if you used the Appliance Modules and Tranceiver to each control their own 120 volt AC relay.
Then each relays contacts could be in parallel to control the water valve while each module didn't see the others AC voltgage on their outlet.

Perhaps we could use bridge rectifiers to activate a single relay to control the appliance.

"I tested two recent CFL Friendly Appliance Modules Date Code 09K48.
Different address B1 and B2.

The Appliance Modules have a sensor circuit in them to determine if they are On or Off when the command is received. So if they are in the state the command tells it to be in. It is ignored."

What model/date Transceiver was used in this test?

FYI My $100 solution for an elevator:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hom61NxuaE

[dave w]

Boynton

"Another thought:  If the appliance is plugged directly into the transceiver module are any issues listed above avoided?"

In that example two commands must be sent sequentially, First command must turn ON the transceiver module, second command would then turn ON the AM.  When turning them OFF the sequence of commands must be reversed to turn OFF the AM first, then second command would turn OFF the transceiver output. This will be true even if both modules have the same HCUC address.

Brians suggestion of 120V AC coil relays is a good solution.

I use AMs to drive these relays (top link) and they work well, in addition to being cheap. All Electronics even has some 120V relays with LEDs in them, so you could easily see the status of your "relay logic" bank.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS//1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/4PRLY-120L/120VAC-4PDT-KH-RELAY-W/LED//1.html

BTW I did not know that; if an Appliance Module is backfed and told to turn ON, it won't even bother since it thinks it is already ON. I have been playing with X10 since about 1979 and I'm still learning stuff.

A Thank You and +1 to the "Brian H Testing Laboratories" !!

[Brian H]

TM751 was the Tranceiver. Most don't have the polite RR501s.

How the older versions with Local Sensing act could be even a different set of findings.

[JeffVolp]

If I was going to do this with X10, I would use several universal modules in a "wire-OR" configuration switching 12V from a wall wart to power a 120V relay with a 12V coil.

If your water valve is controlled by low voltage, perhaps you could use the universal modules directly to switch power to the valve.

Jeff

[Brian H]

That sounds good Jeff.
I was thinking on those lines when the Appliance Modules got introduced to the mix and I wigged out. 

One added thought. RF distance from the motion sensor to the transceiver and power line issues from transceiver to the modules doing the controlling.

[BoyntonStu]

BTW I did not know that; if an Appliance Module is backfed and told to turn ON, it won't even bother since it thinks it is already ON. I have been playing with X10 since about 1979 and I'm still learning stuff.

How do I identify which Appliance Module to buy?

[Brian H]

Is the water valve 120 volts AC or a low voltage AC/DC?
The X10 UM506; X10Pro PUM01 are a low voltage switch output. Can be used to switch low voltage things like valves.
No rated for 120 volt switching.

[dave w]

How do I identify which Appliance Module to buy?

The two Appliance Modules still being made by X10 are virtully identical, excepting the AM466 is three pin (ground) and AM486 is two pin polarized. X10 Pro has same Appliance Modules under different numbers. Supposedly the "Pro" models go through a burn-in and perhaps more QA testing than the standard X10 offering.


As Brian pointed out, the X10 "Universal Module" provides a simple contact closure for low voltage use. This would eliminate the backfeed problem. The Universal Module has maximum current (5 amp) and voltage (24V) limits. The instructions can be found here:
ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/um506-is.pdf

[BoyntonStu]

Is the water valve 120 volts AC or a low voltage AC/DC?
The X10 UM506; X10Pro PUM01 are a low voltage switch output. Can be used to switch low voltage things like valves.
No rated for 120 volt switching.

The valve is a low voltage AC/DC unit <= 24 V.

The only problem is the continuous running of the primary transformer for the low voltage.

I was planning on switching the 110 VAC primary to the low voltage source.

The goals is to do the job with the minimum of parts.

I believe that the lowest component count system would be X #  sensors and a Transceiver capable of ignoring multiple ON pulses.

BTW Why use batteries in the sensors if a battery eliminator is used?

[Brian H]

I will give it more thought and see what I can find out.
Scary part is. I sometimes solve problems or have a why didn't I think of that sooner thought. While dreaming. 

I am sure others may also have some ideas.

[dave w]

The only problem is the continuous running of the primary transformer for the low voltage.


BTW Why use batteries in the sensors if a battery eliminator is used?

1. If the secondary isn't loaded your primary current will usually be pretty low. Same is even more true if you use a switching power supply, although some switching supplies are the nemisis of X10 PLC commands because of the electrical noise they generate.

2. I use 3V battery eliminator to power a hard to reach  MS16A, and to float charge the two AAA NiCADs. The NiCADS will maintain programming in the event of power failure.