Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[skaggz]

Thanks Folks I did just Buy and Reinstall the XPCP Coupler and I have No CHANGE.
I still have units A-2, 4, 5, 6, 7 Not Responding regardless of where I place the Transmitter. (just connected a 2nd trans and still no help on any outlet.)
One Lamp Module on Code A-3 does not work while another does on 3. Also working are 8 and 9, both are In Wall Plate modules. The others mentioned above are all In Wall Plate Modules as well that also act as manual dimmer switches. The manual aspect works not the Radio piece though.

My Panel has a single strip for Breakers to connect and every other breaker is Odd, or L1 and the Breakers in between or even numbered are the L2. I ran the wiring as per the instructions so I'm not sure why this didn't work. I also notice that if I hit say number 5 ON many times, using the Remote, the number 3 module will light up, the one that usually does work when 3 is pressed.
It's almost like there's a new radio signal in the house, (or right outside it) that is interfering with the Transmitter on those bands in the 4 to 7 frequencies??

I did get in touch with the company that installed, Silver Springs Networks, and the gentleman there sounded very interested in learning or trying to learn what has happened here. I will post the results in a day or two.
Thanks for everyones help. Mike

[JeffVolp]

This does sound very much like powerline noise - particularly that morphing of the A5 command into the A3 command.

From the prior description, the only thing that changed was the smart meter was installed.  Documentation on that doesn't show anything that should interfere with X10 communication.  However, the communication module is separate.  It describes one working in the 900MHz range, but they may have used a different one that works near the X10 frequency.

If you speak to the installer again, try to find out if the meter could be sending a signal in the 100KHz to 150KHz range.

Jeff

[billcoff]

I have the same model smart meter installed by SMUD and I haven't noticed any related issues with my rather small, but growing x10 system. The only problem I have noticed is sometimes one of the lamp modules comes on/off for no apparent reason. Often, right after the kitchen florescent light has switched. I believe this is power line noise not related to the smart meter.

2  Old LM465 Lamp Modules
2 MS14 Eagle Eye Sensors
1 WS13 Wall Switch
3 WS467 Wall Switches
1 WS4777 3 Way Wall Switch
1 Universal Module
AHP and CM15A
Palm Pad
3 Button Stick-on Wall Switch
3-Button Credit Card Remote

 

[daruym]

I have been using X-10 for at least 17 years.  My three systems, either do not respond at all, or operate on their own initiative. It took my weeks to figure out that the signals are being blocked in some manner and that the Smart Meter is likely the culprit.   I have had numerous conversations with PG&E and an individual who was identified as a rep of the Smart Meter manufacturer.  All to no avail.  I have also filed a complaint with the PUC.  One of the consistent responses I get, is that PG&E is generally unaware of this problem.  That my be BS or true, but the problem needs to addressed, not just by users, but also, by the manufacturers and the retailers.  After all, it is their business that is being destroyed.  I certainly won't purchase any more x-10, until and unless I have real assurances that it will work.  I am in the SF Bay Areal.

[JeffVolp]

It would be interesting to find out exactly what is going on with smart meters from a signal point of view.  The question is whether smart meters are generating noise in the X10 transmission windows, or are they attenuating the X10 signal levels.  The latter is easy to deal with by boosting signal levels.  Noise is a more difficult problem.  A PZZ01 may help if it is noise.  However, there may still have to be additional filtering specifically designed to reduce intrusion of the smart meter signals onto the household wiring.  The more we can learn about the details of this equipment, the better chance we have on coming up with a solution that works.

Jeff

[daruym]

Jeff:  On an individual basis, it is probably next to impossible to get that level of information.  I really have better things to do, than spend hours on the line with individuals who don't understand the problem, or, understanding the problem, are directed to divert and delay.  I would think that the manufacturers or retailers, who, after all, if they sell a product knowing there is a potential problem with its use, are putting themselves in jeopardy, both their finances and reputation at risk, should be actively pursuing this issue. 

[Dan Lawrence]

Having read this entire thread, and  my electric and gas meters are both inside mounted, if BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric) wants to install a smart meter, I'm going to ask for the frequency it uses, if they don't have it, they don't get access to my house. Smart meters are really for the company, they don't give the user any access to it.

[diamondjz]

I have two x10 installations which have both been wrecked by smart meters recently.  Both essentially lost one phase completely.  One was new with a CM11A and one was 15+ years old(think RS Color computer interface).  Neither required a phase bridge initially and neither responded to a bridge(XPCP) installation after the problem occured.  One has since had a bridge repeater (XPCR) installed in the breaker box and appears to be working okay now although I have not tested it extensively.  Based on that scenario, the problem appears to be a signal strength problem rather than a pure interference problem although the spread spectrum aspect of the com from the smart meter could easily disrupt the X10 signals on a random basis.

[JeffreyB]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just had an Echelon smart meter installed and my X10 system working perfectly for 17 years is now acting up.  I can control all units, but they tend to myseriously turn themselves on, especially at 3-4am (all lights come on).  I have a PZZ01 installed so I thought I wouldn't have noise or external signal issues.  I've also tried an XPCR to no avail.  Any new info on this?  This thread has been dead since March and new smart meters are getting installed daily, so I'd think it would be more of a problem for the X10 community.  A Google search turned up very little...

Here's a link to the meter: http://www.echelon.com/metering/nes_smartmeters.htm

Thanks
Jeff

[JeffVolp]

Several people have reported X10 problems after installation of a smart meter.  To address this and other noise issues, I have been developing an Active Noise Reducer, which is described in another thread:

    http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=25126.0
    
So far all reports from the beta testers have been positive, but I have not heard from all of them yet.  An early production version of that unit is now available.

If the ANR doesn’t do the job (whose purpose is to severely load down noise levels), I have been thinking about an alternate (but much more expensive) approach.  It involves essentially building a very wide bandwidth stereo amplifier with sufficient power to null out any noise signal.  The connection point would be at the distribution panel, and that would be the null summing junction.  The X10 signal would be extracted from the error signal, and the nulling function switched off when a valid X10 signal is detected on the powerline.  Or it could be designed to even boost the valid X10 signal level.

I was also thinking about a possible evolution of X10 to a highly reliable communication system that would be backward compatible with present units.  GPS signals are very weak, but they are recovered from the background noise level through the principle of correlation.  It is amazing to see the signal level pop up when the bit streams are in sync.  I’m thinking about modulating the X10 120KHz carrier with a unique bit pattern such that the X10 signal can be recovered by correlation even when buried in the noise (just like GPS signals).

Jeff

[dhouston]

I have an Echelon meter and while I experience periods every evening when none of my RF remotes work, PLC commands still work.

I can see no noise with my ESM1 but haven't had time to setup anything to test for any RF that might be blocking my remotes.

I'll also try to find time to read the documentation for the BPL standards referenced in Echelon's datasheet for the meter. There is also one obscure reference to Zigbee but that should be well above the X-10 RF frequency.

But, at this time, I really cannot say the meter is a problem. I may just have a neighbor with a plasma TV which are notoriously noisy.

[JeffreyB]

I have no RF in my system, so any issues would be over the power.  It literally happened the day they installed it.  Previously, I had 17 years of pretty much trouble-free operation.  I also have a whole house couple/block that is supposed to knock down anything coming in from outside.  It's located inside my panel on this side of the meter, so you'd think it would be blocking signals/noise coming out of the meter.

Jeff, would I need two of these one for each phase?  How does one go about getting one (or two) to test?

Thanks,
Jeff

[JeffVolp]

Jeff, would I need two of these one for each phase?  How does one go about getting one (or two) to test?

All the beta units are gone, but please contact me privately.

Jeff

[dhouston]

I have no RF in my system, so any issues would be over the power.  It literally happened the day they installed it. 

There is another recent thread that raises my suspicion that these meters cause X-10 issues but I'm still looking for a smoking gun to confirm it.

• http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=25245.0

[JeffVolp]

There is another recent thread that raises my suspicion that these meters cause X-10 issues but I'm still looking for a smoking gun to confirm it.

About a year ago one of my customers started having problems with his X10 system.  The problems began after the electric company changed his meter.  As I recall, adding a PZZ01 helped, but did not solve all the problems.  Through thorough troubleshooting - essentially turning off all circuits except one for for X10 testing - he was pretty convinced that the problem was coming in over the utility feed.  Eventually he threw in the towel completely on his X10 system.

That got me started on trying to solve the X10 noise problem - initially with the Tuned Signal Sucker (which not even all the beta units were requested), and more recently the Active Noise Reducer.  In my testing here that is working really well, but still can't totally eliminate the problem from that Lumoform 4W LED light.

If I was going to design a noise generator, I don't think I could do much better than that Lumoform light.  It puts out a VERY strong signal almost exactly at 120KHz, and the noise burst starts just like a X10 signal.  Unfortunately, there may be some devices that will still have to be isolated with an appropriate filter.

Jeff