Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: ** Maybe Solved ** AF120 not enough?  (Read 8507 times)

bitman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 9
  • Posts: 597
** Maybe Solved ** AF120 not enough?
« on: February 18, 2011, 10:32:58 PM »

Hi,

I have two clone PCs in the basement. One is a P5 plain vanilla and the other is an i7 hot rod.
I found some time ago that if they were on, some of the x10 upstairs would not work. As a matter of fact, since I upgraded the "hot rod" to an i7 board from a core2duo board when it is on, the hall light upstairs will go on and off all by itself. So I got an AF120 15A filter for the PCs and it did nothing to lessen their effect on the non-operational x10 upstairs. Only turning those 2 pcs off will bring back the x10 upstairs. I think the AF120 is good because if I put a lamp controller behind it it filters the x10 out as expected and the lamp controller cannot hear it's commands. - Curiously, an x10 chime doesn't seem to be affected by the AF120 or the 5 amp filter I have but that is just an odd sidebar.

What now?

:Ron
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:30:30 AM by bitman »
Logged
Long live X10! - Because I just like it is all.....

HA Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 174
  • Posts: 7108
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 08:51:00 AM »

....... the hall light upstairs will go on and off all by itself. So I got an AF120 15A filter for the PCs and it did nothing to lessen their effect on the non-operational x10 upstairs...... What now?

Mapping your circuits is always a great start.

I've never thought to try to filter the noise maker... I usually filter the noise out at the receiving end. Are you using a CM15A? Besides the computer(s) are you using a UPS? You've coupled your phases as well... right?

I am sorry I don't remember this stuff from your earlier posts... I know I should.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 08:53:47 AM by Dave_x10_L »
Logged
Home Automation is an always changing technology

bitman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 9
  • Posts: 597
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 09:46:13 AM »

No you shouldn't.

I have a cm15 in the basement for the basement x10 and a tm751 upstairs.

The chime, is by the way, the only x10 device that is being knocked out.I was being general as to not complicate.
All 10 other devices upstairs still work. - As I type this I'm getting an Ah-Ha already...

The pcs are not on a ups. And the phases are not coupled.

:Ron
Logged
Long live X10! - Because I just like it is all.....

bitman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 9
  • Posts: 597
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 09:55:33 AM »

Wait... You can filter at the receiving end? Doesn't that filter the PLC from reach the target? If I put a lamp controller behind an x10 filter I can no longer control it.

Please enlighten.
Logged
Long live X10! - Because I just like it is all.....

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 298
  • Posts: 13011
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 10:06:17 AM »

Yes a filter to the AC input of a module. Will stop it from receiving a signal.
Sometimes a wired in filter is used on the load side if the load is making the module flaky.

PCs not on an UPS should not make a difference. Filtering the AC to them should make a difference.
I have read of a real hard to kill noise problem where they had to use a filter plug into a second filter.

Jeff may have thoughts on this. I have seen some theories that since the filter coils are on the Line side. Sometimes noise sneaks back on the neutral return. I personally doubt it as most filters also have a cap between the line and neutral. In the center of the LC networks.
Logged

bitman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 9
  • Posts: 597
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 11:14:17 AM »

 B:(

Why didn't I see this sooner?

Last spring we lost one phase of the incoming AC. Either the voles chewed through the main or I drew too much inrush current one two many times (When the basement studio was all on one switch).  :'

Anyway we "mapped" the house be default for the morning 1/2 the AC was down. I know more or less what sockets are on what phase. I know for sure that the basement is on the phase we lost as well as some of the upstairs sockets.

So, I moved the TM751 which is servicing the deck and back master bedroom (more or less) to a socket that was working when we lost 1/2 the AC. And I moved the chime to a socket on the same phase.
Long long long story short. I have the whole studio powered up and the x10 upstairs seems to be working including the problem chime.

I have the AF120 in play downstairs in an effort to keep the hall light from coming on and off too.

Thanks for playing "What's up with Ron" today.

:Ron
Logged
Long live X10! - Because I just like it is all.....

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 117
  • Posts: 2168
    • XTB Home Page
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2011, 11:24:15 AM »


Like all the higher current filters, the AF120 is a notch filter.  I don't have one myself, and have never measured its response, but it should significantly attenuate noise in the X10 band.  It should also reduce signal attenuation caused by a device plugged into the filter.

How well it works depends on how closely it is tuned to the noise or X10 signal.  Unlike a low-pass filter like the XPPF, even slight mistuning of a high-Q notch filter will reduce its effectiveness.  And, since it is a T-network with the leg of the T being a shunt capacitor to ground, it may also attenuate the X10 signal unless the input “arm” is tuned exactly to the X10 signal frequency.

All the computer power supplies I have taken apart have had capacitors directly across their AC power input to meet the FCC regulation on conducted radiation.  So, they are not noise sources, but are serious signal suckers.  Of course, my computer cases are almost a decade old, and manufacturers may be doing something entirely different now.

So, where does that leave you…  It depends on whether your computer is a noise source or signal sucker.  If it is a noise source, then adding a second AF120 in series should help.  If it is a signal sucker, then possible attenuation from a slightly mistuned AF120 may be an issue, and adding a second AF120 in series may not help.  Since you have a “hot” computer, you may be over the safe current rating of the XPPF filter.  If not, that may be more effective than the AF120.  The other option is to boost your X10 signal levels so attenuation from the computer doesn't matter.

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

dave w

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 138
  • Posts: 6112
Re: AF120 not enough?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 03:18:06 PM »

  or I drew too much inrush current one two many times (When the basement studio was all on one switch).  :'
Sounds like a great application for "studio sequential power up" via AHP.
Logged
"This aftershave makes me look fat"
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.