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[ThePPL]

I've been using X-10 products in my homes for the last 10 years.  A relative wanted me to set up his cabin so that he could dial into it before driving there to turn on some of the baseboard heaters.  It gets pretty cold where the cabin is.  So I wired him up some SR227s and a PHC06 telephone controller.  It was all working fine and easy for him to use.  Then he noticed that occasionally, the baseboard heaters were turning on when they shouldn't be.

He narrowed it down to power failures.  When the SR227 is turned off and the power blips for a short duration (less than a few seconds), it seems that the SR227 goes into the "On" state.

What we really need in this application is a power receptacle that, during a brief power interruption, will stay in the Off state.

Has anyone else had experience with this kind of problem?  Are there other receptacles that you know of that would work better?

Thanks for any help!

[Brian H]

Sounds like the local control sensor is tripping with the short power blip.
As a test. Turn the SR227 Off then cycle the heaters local On Off switch or thermostat. Off then back On. If the SR227 turns on it is local control sensing.

I am not sure if the Insteon OutletLinc has local control. I will see what I can find out. As an X10 address can be programmed into it.
The literature does indicate it reverts to the power state, On or Off, it was in during a power loss.
Short power blips can do all kinds of strange stuff. So I don't know if an Outletlinc would act strange also and at around $50 each. 

[Noam]

I wonder if plugging in a small night-light into the same outlet (you'd probably need a cube tap) would help defeat the local current sensing feature.

[dave w]

 It was all working fine and easy for him to use.  Has anyone else had experience with this kind of problem?

Yes, but with Appliance Modules.

I have them come on when we have a brown out. When the power comes back up slowly or flickers before stabilizing, I have appliance modules clicking ON all over the place.  It used to be such a  big problem with the old brown modules that home control systems of the early 90s (i.e. Enerlogic, JDR, etc)  had a power restore feature where you selected the state you wanted your modules placed in after the power stabilized. X10 made things much better by adding MOVs to the later single board design.

As Brian notes, it could also be the "Local Control" being falsed.

Either way, when I have a device I can not risk having turn ON accidently, (i.e. a 1950's 120V air raid siren which can be heard from blocks away) I run two Appliance Modules in series.

In your application you could plug an Appliance Module in to the SR227. The only problem is: obviously the SR227 must be turned on first and the appliance module is turned on second. To turn off, maintaining the double protection, the Appliance Module must be turned off first and the SR227 turned off second.

This double module will also stop the problem if the accidental ONs are caused by the Local Control.

Also your friend might consider using a CM15A and AHP to twice a day send OFF commands to all X10 modules when the cabin is not occupied. He could also make macros do all the necessary sequence commands to the SR227 and Appliance Modules rather than having to send multiple commands it over the phone.

[Noam]

Also your friend might consider using a CM15A and AHP to twice a day send OFF commands to all X10 modules when the cabin is not occupied. He could also make macros do all the necessary sequence commands to the SR227 and Appliance Modules rather than having to send multiple commands it over the phone.

I'd go one better.
Create a conditional macro to turn everything off if a flag is set.
Then, put the macro on a timer, to run every hour.
Create another pair of macros, to turn the flag on and off.
When leaving the cabin, turn on the flag. If anything comes on by accident, it will go off within an hour.
Before coming to the cabin, the macro that kicks everything on first clears the flag.

[ThePPL]

As a test. Turn the SR227 Off then cycle the heaters local On Off switch or thermostat. Off then back On. If the SR227 turns on it is local control sensing.

You might be onto something.  Maybe the local control sensor is malfunctioning during a brownout.
Unfortunately there is no one at the cabin currently to do this test.  The way I have it wired, though, the thermostat will not have any effect.  I actually have a large relay (ELK-9200) plugged into the SR227 socket that switches the power to the high current 220V baseboard heaters.  In reality, the only thing the SR227 sees for load is the relay coil (never changes).

I am not sure if the Insteon OutletLinc has local control.

Good point.  I had a look at the manual for those and they do allow you to Enable / Disable Load Sensing.  Maybe one of those would work better.  Only problem is that they are $45 compared to the $9 for the SR227s.

Either way, when I have a device I can not risk having turn ON accidently, (i.e. a 1950's 120V air raid siren which can be heard from blocks away) I run two Appliance Modules in series.

Interesting.  I might just try that.  I've got some appliance modules laying around that I don't need.  I might just try that.

Create a conditional macro to turn everything off if a flag is set.
Then, put the macro on a timer, to run every hour.
Create another pair of macros, to turn the flag on and off.
When leaving the cabin, turn on the flag. If anything comes on by accident, it will go off within an hour.
Before coming to the cabin, the macro that kicks everything on first clears the flag.

Sounds like a decent idea too.  Unfortunately, that one will cost him some money and a little more complexity.  Note that I would be the one programming/maintaining the system.

I was hoping someone would just reply with "Ya, I had that problem.  Buy this model number and the problem will go away".  I appreciate all the ideas though.

[Brian H]

OH. Since you are only switching the Relay Coil in the ELK-9200. Maybe a 4 watt night light bulb or a 33,000 Ohm 1/2 watt resistor across the coil. My quiet things down.

I do like the appliance module in the SR227 thought.

[dave w]

The "double module" solution is kind of extreme and forces you to issue extra commands in a sequenced manor. But for those items that you absolutely can not tolerate coming on unexpectedly, it works well and adds an element of "peace of mind".

[Noam]

What about using an appliance module plugged into a "regular" outlet, and then using a cube tap with a night-light to bypass the local current sensing?
There is also a mod to disable it entirely (I think you snip a resistor inside - there are instructions on Ido Bartana's site), but I don't know if that is only with the older ones, not the newer ones.

[Brian H]

Mod is for the older ones. Before X10 did a 100% redesign and called them CFL friendly.

[dave w]

What about using an appliance module plugged into a "regular" outlet, and then using a cube tap with a night-light to bypass the local current sensing?
There is also a mod to disable it entirely (I think you snip a resistor inside - there are instructions on Ido Bartana's site), but I don't know if that is only with the older ones, not the newer ones.

It all depends on whether the local sense circuit is causing the false turn on, OR very high amplitude noise created when the power "makes a dirty come back". Power glitches would cause Lamp and Appliance modules to turn on unexpectedly. This was one of the reasons X10 added a MOV to the 2nd generation Appliance Module (I don't think X10 added a 20 or 30 cent part to protect the module).

[Brian H]

Since it is switching a heavy duty relay on and off. I wounder if the relay coil has any MOV on it or if adding one would help.

[dave w]

I was hoping someone would just reply with "Ya, I had that problem.  Buy this model number and the problem will go away".  I appreciate all the ideas though.

Well I don't think the SmartHome Appliance Modules have the problem. And the SmartHome "Local Sense" feature can be turned off.

[Brian H]

Well the sensing current is always there.
You get to choose allowing it to trigger the module On or be ignored.

The latest revision Insteon ApplianceLinc and its slightly less costly Icon On/Off Relay modules both default to Off after a power failure.
Older ones powered back up to the state they where in at power loss. On if it was On. Off if it was Off.
Guess that could be a problem. If you remotely turned On the heat and there was a power loss. The heat would stay off after power restoration.

[ThePPL]

The latest revision Insteon ApplianceLinc and its slightly less costly Icon On/Off Relay modules both default to Off after a power failure.
Older ones powered back up to the state they where in at power loss. On if it was On. Off if it was Off.
Guess that could be a problem. If you remotely turned On the heat and there was a power loss. The heat would stay off after power restoration.

Actually that is not a problem at all in this case.  It would be much better than what is happening now.  The heaters are turned on only a few hours before someone arrives at the cabin.  There is a pretty slim chance that the power would be interrupted during that time.

I'm heading to the cabin in a few weeks so maybe I'll try to find a couple of Insteon or Icon receptacles and see how they work.

Thanks for the ideas everyone!