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Author Topic: HELP! Severe line noise.  (Read 5571 times)

drbsr

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HELP! Severe line noise.
« on: August 30, 2011, 11:24:02 PM »
I really need some help.

I have been using the HCA X10 automation system for the past eleven years with no problems, save for a computer power supply a few years ago that was dumping a lot of noise into the line and interfering with HCA commands.  After replacing the power supply all was well.

In February I bought a new custom computer and immediately started having line noise issues.  Assuming that it was the same kind of problem as before, I replaced the power supply but this time it did not cure the problem.

After some troubleshooting I discovered that the noise only occurred when a USB storage device - an outboard hard disc drive or flash drive - was connected.  When these devices were no longer attached the line was quiet.

Last night the noise started again without any storage devices attached; this time I was able to quiet the line by disconnecting the USB scanner.

There is obviously something about the USB bus that is causing this and it’s making me crazy.  The computer is powered through a Smarthome 1626-10 FilterLinc and through a Belkin UPS, neither of which appear to have any effect on the noise.

And the noise, by the way, is quite severe, sometimes throwing errors two to three times per second!  It has made my entire X10 system unusable.  See the attached error log.

Does anyone have any thoughts?  If you need more specific information on the components, please let me know.  I didn’t want to clutter the message with details.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

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Dan Lawrence

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:18 AM »
Betcha the noise is coming from the PC.  PC power supplies are notorious for putting out noise.   Get filters for all PC's in a house with X10.  Now what do you use to control your X10 modules?
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Noam

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »
Are you connecting the USB devices directly to the PC, or through a hub?
Are they bus-powered devices, or self-powered?

You mentioned that you have the PC plugged in through a filter. Are the power supplies for the USB hub and devices (if applicable) also filtered?
Is the UPS plugged in through a filter?
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drbsr

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 04:07:42 PM »
"Are you connecting the USB devices directly to the PC, or through a hub?"
Both, including a powered hub.  The storage devices that started the problem are connected directly to the PC; the scanner that caused the new issue is bus powered and is connected through the hub.

"Are they bus-powered devices, or self-powered?"
Both.

"You mentioned that you have the PC plugged in through a filter. Are the power supplies for the USB hub and devices (if applicable) also filtered?"
No, but they are powered through the UPS.

"Is the UPS plugged in through a filter?"
No.

Thank you for the thoughts - they're really appreciated.

Since the FilterLinc is a 10 Amp device, I'll add all of the powered USB devices and the hub to the filtered power outlet and let you know the result.

Regarding the last question, are you suggesting that I use a filter on both side of the UPS?
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Noam

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 04:49:16 PM »
Quote from: drbsr on August 31, 2011, 04:07:42 PM
...Regarding the last question, are you suggesting that I use a filter on both side of the UPS?
No. One filter between the UPS and the wall should be enough.
As far as I understand it (and others here who know a lot more about this stuff can feel free to correct me here), the UPS, by design, ends up filtering the stuff plugged into it. However, the UPS itself can create noise as well. That's why you should only need one filter for the UPS.

In my case, one of my UPS-es is plugged in directly through a filter, while most of the rest of the equipment is not.
My other UPS is plugged into a power strip along with two laptop power adapters, and that strip is plugged into the filter.

It works pretty well for me. My biggest issue is that between the filters (Smarthome Filterlincs) which have  the "filtered" outlet on the bottom, and the right-angle plug from some of the power strips I have, it becomes an issue to get everything plugged in properly. I wish someone made a filter with a short (1-2ft) ford at each end. That might make things easier for me. I end up having a bunch of extra power strips, and I picked up a few of those 1-ft "liberator" extension cords (designed to allow you to plug in multiple "power bricks" into one strip).
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msauto

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 09:55:22 PM »
This may not be relevent to your problem , but does the new computer have wireless and possibly blue tooth? I've had a lot of trouble getting the wireless signals cleaned up from my wireless router,but I am in a metal building and my cams our outside(not the best conditions but with a few mods and a little , pardon,A LOT of patience i have a fairly stable connection. You might try turning off your wireless routers and cards and any other wireless devices on the new system.Just a guess,But even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while.
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Dan Lawrence

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 10:00:06 PM »
PC's are notorious for putting out noise on the power line, so every PC in the house as a filter on it.
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drbsr

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 10:20:16 PM »
No, there's no wireless that wasn't in place before I got the machine and the new 'puter doesn't have Bluetooth.  Good thought, though, and thanks.

I've been away for a few days so I haven't had time to experiment further.  I'm going to try filtering the UPS tomorrow.
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drbsr

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 04:17:21 PM »
Success…  almost.  This has gotten even more bizarre.

I installed the FilterLinc on the power input to the UPS so every device connected to the computer is filtered.  It successfully killed all of the noise coming from the computer.  So far, so good.

But it also is blocking every X-10 command coming from the dedicated X-10 control computer in the basement, two floors below the offending computer.  My X-10 handheld wireless controllers are working fine but any command from the control computer is blocked.  If I take the FilterLinc out of the UPS circuit, everything returns to normal.   B:(

Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions given so far.  Any thoughts about this latest wrinkle?
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Brian H

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 04:21:55 PM »
The X10 controller can not be behind a FilterLinc or any other filter.
It will kill all power line signals from the interface.
It has to be connectd to an unfiltered AC outlet.

I used a FilterLinc on my UPS but have my interface {A Insteon PLM} in the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front of the FilterLinc.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 04:24:41 PM by Brian H »
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drbsr

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 04:56:59 PM »
Brian, the offending computer is on the second floor; the control computer is two floors away in the basement on a different circuit than the one on the second floor and is not filtered in any way.  Further, the X-10 signal from the control computer is injected into the power line through a Marrick LynX-10 PLC interface that is on its own dedicated circuit directly next to the main circuit box.

The HCA log shows a collision and reception error or two when the FilterLinc is in the line, but not enough to account for all of the blocked signals.  There are zero errors when the FilterLinc is removed.  It's almost as if the FilterLinc is generating some sort of high-level interference when it is connected to the offending computer.  But that's not possible, is it? 

If I reconnect the external USB drive to the computer, the original problem returns.

This is all very strange.
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dhouston

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 05:31:15 PM »
I vaguely recall there were some issues with how the LynX-10 handled collisions. How many repeat tries is it set for? What other PLC transmitters are in the system? This comp.home.automation search link might shed some light (if there's no collision, that is).
EDIT: Ooops. I scanned right over the PLC. I was familiar with the earlier version of LynX-10 that worked with the TW523. I bought a PLC but had no desire to pay $200 for the software and Marrick wouldn't release any details to allow me to add support for it to Commander X so I tossed it in my junk box (where Marrick joined it a couple of years later). I'll butt out since I have no expertise whatsoever on the PLC version.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:30:27 PM by dhouston »
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Brian H

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 06:52:27 PM »
Thanks for the added details on your setup.
I can't think of any reason why the FilterLinc would cause problems. As long as you used the filtered outlet on the bottom and not the pass through unfiltered one on the front.
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Noam

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »
Try two things:
1) Unplug the Fiterlinc AND the stuff plugged into it. Test again, and see if the problem is still there.
If the problem goes away, then try this:
2) Plug in ONLY the Filterlinc, and do the tests again. If the problem comes back, perhaps the filterlinc is defective.
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dave w

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Re: HELP! Severe line noise.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 10:10:59 AM »
I don't have a FilterLinc, but believe they are completely passive (no active electronics). So The FilterLinc may be defective and allowing computer noise to pass through, but is unlikely FilterLinc could be generating noise by itself. $0.02
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