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[luke03]

I wonder if there is any way to make TM751 to accept RF command for more than one house code?
I need more than 15 devices to be controlled. When putting the appliance module on different house codes, only one house code work.

Since the X10 RF has both house ID and device ID encoded inside, can I make TM751 to work on more than one house ID?

[Brian H]

I have never seen a mod for a TM751. There was a construction project to make one. I believe it used parts from an RR501 or maybe a TM751.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm

Some folks have used a WGL V572A all House Code Unit and it even has an antenna you can remotely mount higher in the home.
http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

Leviton made a all House Code Module. HCPRF.
Smarthome still shows some available but other sites show discontinued.
http://www.smarthome.com/4017/Leviton-Transceiver-Base-HCPRF-1TW/p.aspx

[dave w]

I wonder if there is any way to make TM751 to accept RF command for more than one house code?
I need more than 15 devices to be controlled. When putting the appliance module on different house codes, only one house code work.

Since the X10 RF has both house ID and device ID encoded inside, can I make TM751 to work on more than one house ID?

No.
Buy a second TM751, or a CM15A, off ebay...soon.

[luke03]

Thanks, Brian and Dave.
I found the link Brian provided interesting.  However, the modification taking pal devices, instead of just replace the pic controller and programming it.  The most problem people having with X10 are mainly two areas: 1) not enough device ID to control all the appliances and lights; 2) interference from neighboors.

If X10 can provide open source for people to re-program the chips, I would think two features can be added easily to improve X10 devices greatly. One is to increase the device ID, or make house ID and device ID combined.  Another is to added a controller ID field to allow only programmed controller to control the devices.

Since many new pic controllers are lower cost than before, and its eeprom and code space are much larger, adding logic to expand the ID fields are all possible.

[dhouston]

Laser Business Systems had a replacement PIC several years ago but I don't think they ever marketed it. I have one and it works fine.

As far as getting X10's PIC source - forget about it. But, the RF part is simple enough - I've documented the protocol on my website and there's some PICBasicPro source code for sending/receiving the RF. You can likely find source for the PLC protocol.

Dan Lanciani may have released ASM code or a hex file for this - I don't recall specifically - he had several other X10 PIC projects and, if he doesn't have this may have a link. If he released source, it would likely include PIC ASM for PLC. I know he did a PIC for the CM11A and RR501 and if he released the RR501 source, it would be a good starting point for the TM751.

I expect to release my RR5x5 project in a couple of months. It converts an RR501 to all housecodes plus adds a few other features.

• http://davehouston.org/rf.htm
• http://davehouston.org/RFTipsTricks.htm
• http://davehouston.org/rr5x5.htm
• http://laser.com
• http://danlan.com/homeauto.html

[luke03]

This is a great news. Do you think possible to get a PIC controller simply replace the pic chip on the X10 device, so that they can have controller ID?  I know that breaks the current X10 protocol. However, it will eliminate the neighboor problem totally.

ZWave is two way communication, each device must reply to controller after received command. However, majority of X10 devices are working fine without the need to send in the reply to controller.

X10 could simply add little logic to remember the controller code, which can be a 32 bit number by each X10 device, after it first turn on witin 20 seconds, from the first command it received. It will self program that controller code into its eeprom, which almost every device can do it.

Then it will be very reliable.  That will allow X10 to gain back a lot of market from Zwave, Insteon, etc.

[dhouston]

About the only way you will get a replacement PIC is to program your own. X-10 appears to have stopped manufacturing devices and is merely selling off existing inventory.

Adding an ID to the RF protocol is possible if you program your own PIC (just tack it on at the end of the existing code and it will not break anything) but you need remotes that can send it and it will do nothing to increase X-10 reliability which is overwhelmingly due to noise sources (e.g. noisy switching power supplies in cell phone chargers, CFLs, LEDs, etc.) and/or signal attenuation from capacitors between line and neutral (to stop noise from leaking to powerline) in other devices.

Desoldering existing PICs is non-trivial for all but serious DIYers (and X10's low quality PCBs make it worse) so providing replacement PICs is unlikely to generate much interest.

[ardhuru]

Guys, Dan Lanciani had released firmware for an alternate, all housecode pic a couple years back. In fact, there are 2 versions; one is a straight pin-compatible drop in replacement, and the other a more ambitious one that also takes IR inputs, but needs surgery on the PCB as well. http://www.danlan.com/homeauto.html

I too eventually developed my version, for my specific needs; I wanted the whole command transmitted twice, for reliability. While at it, I also stretched the burst width of each pulse, to make the whole system more forgiving.

BTW, I absolutely agree with Dave's observations about the efficacy of an extra ID frame. Easy enough to incorporate, but then you'd need your own transmitters as well.

Regards,

Anand

[luke03]

Great link, Anand!
Thanks for your explainaiton, David.
If X10 no longer making X10 devices, do you think if they mind people making devices based on their design with improvement?

Both of you saying controller also needed to transmit house code. I am not very clear what you talked about, the RR501 is a controller, isn't it?

I think X10 could make a huge come back, if they make an improved hardware by using a more powerful pic chip, then open its source for people to do open source tweaking.  Since their hardware is already UL and FCC approved, simply tweaking the firmware will not make any difference on that.  Like Linksys made their wifi router open source so that they have a #1 selling wifi router -- knowing that most people buying it is for replacing its firmware with the open source one.  X10 can open source to make its products #1 HA controllers and modules.

[dave w]

If X10 no longer making X10 devices, do you think if they mind people making devices based on their design with improvement?

I think X10 could make a huge come back, if they make an improved hardware by using a more powerful pic chip, then open its source for people to do open source tweaking.  Since their hardware is already UL and FCC approved, simply tweaking the firmware will not make any difference on that.   X10 can open source to make its products #1 HA controllers and modules.

$0.02
X10 patents for their PLC stuff has run out, so I'm not sure if there could be any legal recourse for X10. But X10 PLC protocol has a lot going against it right now. With switching power supplies becoming cheaper to manufacture than quiet inductive supplies, and nanny gov mandated CFL and LED bulbs. Both notorious noise makers. I wonder if those are not contributing factors if X10 does throw in the PLC home automation towel. Also, X10 protocol PLC products marketed in the fashion X10 has marketed it, will die a quick death.  In other words if any one was to step in to the PLC shoes and begin manufacture, I think it would be a huge up hill battle to get meaningful sales, except to the few thousand loyalists who understand how to make it work.

There might be a magic bullet in the form of an active filter for PLC noise which Jeff Volp of JV Digital Engineering is working on. If that becomes reality, yep, X10 PLC would certainly get a powerful boost.

[systemdm]

There might be a magic bullet in the form of an active filter for PLC noise which Jeff Volp of JV Digital Engineering is working on. 

I don't know if it is the magic bullet dave is talking about, the XTB-ANR sure works great for me.  Haven't had a failure since installing it......

[luke03]

My 8 years old projector died, so I got a new projector. After having it installed, I sadly discovered my X10 modules near that projector all quit working.  I think that has something to do with the power supply from projector injected too much noise into power line.

I think these noise not only causing trouble to X10, but also to any control modules depends on PLC.

One way to address that is to have active filter at the output side of the module, and put all devices, including my new projector, behind those new PLC devices with built-in filter.

X10 has the engineering resources, the manufacture line, and the marketing channel. If they change their products to make improved hardware with open source firmware, I think they can gain a lot market share back.  Arduino was nothing when it started, but they are huge now, because they specially made hardware for people to put on their own firmware. Also true for Linksys wifi router, that particular model selling strong for so many years, merely because the design allowing people to hack and modify the firmware.

[dave w]

If they change their products to make improved hardware with open source firmware, I think they can gain a lot market share back. 

What you say, may be true. But, with X10, I think it is like asking a leopard to change it's spots.