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Author Topic: Need a unit to recieve X10 code on powerline and transmit code by radio  (Read 4373 times)

rhblakeman

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Here's the scenario. House and office (was a freestanding garage) are about 25 feet apart on the sides. The front of the office sits even with the back of the house. The driveway sits to the side of the house and in front of the office. Back in 2009 I upgraded the office electrical service from 100A to 200A so the power company put in a new overhead service drop. Since the house was built in 1952 it is fed by the old air separated feeders that aren't heavy enough to service the 100A in the house and 200A for the office besides the other homes nearby on the same transformer so they moved the feed to the office to another newly installed 7200 line that runs to the side of our property instead of the old system in front. I was hoping they could put both buildings on the new 7200 but the service entrance for the house is on the front so that was a no go since the new 7200 system is in a bad place requiring the drop to go over the office roof, which they won't and can't do. So basically each building is on a different 7200 system and different transformers. So no signal through powerline between the buildings for X10 powerline devices.

I have a PR511 flood setup on the corner of the office nearest the house but with the office having a commercial power account the cost per KW is a lot more than the house with a residential account. Since the floods are used for the area between buildings I want to put a PR511 (I have another I haven't used) on the corner of the house and when it is triggered have it turn on for a period like it does on the office. At the same time I want to remove the floods from the PR511 on the office and leave the sensor head on the plate (plug the hole that the flood heads come out of, of course) so that we have additional coverage of a dead area the house mounted PR511 won't be able to see. In order for it to sense movement, darkness, etc and send the proper code to the house mounted PR511 I need a unit/module in the office that will receive the code from the simple sensor head on the office power line then repeat that and send it out by RF/radio so that a RR501 transceiver can receive the radio signal and send it into the house powerline as a command so that the house mounted PR511 will turn on just like it would from signals of it's own sensor head.

Is there a unit, plug in/wall or box mount, that can receive powerline commands and send them out as radio signals - sort of backwards of the normal transceiver function I guess. I do all my own wiring here (did everything from the weatherhead splice to the outlets and all the new wiring that replaced the out of date 1952 wiring and 60A service to the 100A on the house) so I can install anything there is but I just need to know what unit or units can do what I need to bridge the buildings by RF.
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rhblakeman

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Alternatively is there an outdoor style motion detector that transmits RF a decent distance? I was thinking that I have a MS-14A or similar tossed in a box somwhere because the batteries leaked and corroded the contacts. I could probably work out a 3V dc wall wart to it and make a bracket to hold it under the eave near the present floods and it could transmit to the house code and ID of the floods on the house via a transceiver in the house. Probably 25 ft straight line distance if that and through the exterior wall of the house as I can put the transceiver right by the outside wall. Is there a way to increase RF range on one of those by maybe connecting a wire internally and hanging it out (seal the hole from water) like the PC USB controller has?
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HA Dave

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There are ways you could rig the house mounted unit to trigger an adjacent [office] mounted light or whatever. But I don't know what sort of parts you may have available.

If you have a PalmPad Remote and a Universal Module: You could break [cut] the battery's power line in the Palmpad and extend the wire to the universal module. Then use a small clamp to hold down a button on the palmpad remote. The PR 511 would trigger the Universal Module, the power circuit would be complete [closed] and the PalmPad would send a RF signal that could be received in the Office.

If you only have a palmpad you could rig a relay in the box that holds the PR511. The relay would be powered by the same eclectic that is used to power the floodlight. BE SURE THAT ALL ELECTICAL CONTACT SURFACES ARE PROTECTED.

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Knightrider

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I think Jeff Volp once tackled a similar problem.  Think it involved phase coupling the two services using 2 XTB's. I'm wondering if there's a way to link an xtb-523 on one service to an xtb-523 on the other service.

Jeff is the man to ask.
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rhblakeman

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I'll have to look into the palm thing and figure that out. Not sure what you mean unless it's one of those rectangular radio remotes with 8 on/off buttons and bottom switch to change from 1-8 to 9-16. I have an old HR-12A I use in the house now to turn the front office light, floods and inside florescents on and off with using a transceiver. If that's it I could actually use one with the universal module and power it with a 3V wall wart (or 9V one and a regulator to 3V from an old PC power supply) and put all of it inside of a plastic conduit box in the attic space closest to the house, maybe put a wire antenna extension on it. One to consider. Thanks.

 I've phase coupled two phases in the same service (have it on both buildings at the service panels with a noise filter on each) but I'm not too sure how safe or dangerous coupling two totally different services would be. The breaker panels are about 100 ft apart as well. The service for the house comes in the front or east side way on the south wall side. The office service is on the north wall midway from east to west. It might not be a viable option with the cost of wire now even if it can be safe. I have a conduit between for phones, network, video and other low voltage but I was thinking I maybe might drop a conduit down the north wall of the house down from the flood unit, underground the 20 or so feet to the front (SE) corner of the office then up to the underhang and into the attic of it and connect the sensor head from the present flood. A lot less wire, no phase interconnects and both the sensors are powered by the house service. It would be better to communicate by radio but I still have the drawing board out and considering a bunch of options. Now I have to ponder how to connect two sensors to the same flood set. Parallel or series? My guess is parallel like you would do with manual to be able to turn on a light with either switch but I have to consider what happens if both go into a closed condition, if one might act as a short. Anyway I'll locate the person you mentioned and see how he worked it and go from there. Couple more things to consider. Thanks to you as well.

Anyone else just toss your idea out there. Sure I'll only use one but it's a lot better to have 10 ideas and use one than only 1 idea and it not work exactly as I want.

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rhblakeman

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Hold on a second. I know about the universal module that when sent a signal can close (or open) contacts momentarily but isn't there a reverse of that, a similar module that when some voltage is sent to the contacts it triggers a powerline code? If so I could use low voltage wire through my existing conduit between buildings and have the sensor on the office crap out the code to close the contacts on a universal to throw the trigger voltage to the module on the other side which would sense the voltage and crap out a code on the house powerline to turn on the flood set on the house. The low voltage link would isolate the two services too and be safe if somehow the underground link was cut. No radio to worry about interference either. Minimal of parts.

Now I have to dig up if there is a module that can kick out a powerline code when the contacts are closed or a voltage is sent to them. Even if no longer available I'm sure someone here or on ebay has one. I might even have to come up with a relay or something. Been doing electrical and electronics since 65 so I should be able to rig something analog between with a low voltage link. I have some 12v automotive relays if needed.
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rhblakeman

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Bingo I located something that will work in an X10 document about using a PSC01 with a PUM01 to bridge between services

http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/pum01.pdf

Now I just have to dig in my stuff and see if I have both, or locate somewhere with stock of both. Since I have a spare pair of wires on the Cat5E I ran for phones in the underground conduit I could use that and not have to run more wire.

If anyone can come up with a wireless version of same please post.
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rhblakeman

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Quick PR511 question. Say I have the sensor head on the office (no flood lamps attached, the blue and white are disconnected so the head acts alone) set to duration of .5 mins on the delay setting. I'm sure it sends an ON code when it's triggered but at the end of 1/2 minute does it send an OFF code? I ask since the PUM01 universal module has a continuous and momentary setting that I guess continuous will stay on once the ON command is given, and turn off when an OFF command is given? If the PR511 sensor head doesn't issue an OFF command at the end of the delay how does it turn off the units switched in under the sensor function?

So two questions then in summary - does the ON command on the PR511 sensor get followed by an OFF command at the end of the delay and does the continuous function of the PUM01 universal module stay on once an ON command is issued to it's unit code and go off when an OFF command is sent to it's unit code? That way I don't need to use the momentary with a preset period on the PUM01.

I can find both the PSC01 and PUM01 new (old stock I guess) so if it will work like I think with the low voltage link between then I can order a couple of each (spares and other things I'm contemplating) and get this done over the summer including disconnection of the flood sockets on the office PR511 and wire them to a regular switch when I need them.

EDIT: Re-read the PUM01 guide and continuous does function like I thought. When the PR511 sends an ON command it switches the contacts and stays on until it gets an OFF command. Now I just need to determine if the PR511 sensor issues an OFF at the end of the set delay. The PR511 manual kind of hints at it but doesn't say specifically. Maybe I need to experiment a bit with a lamp or appliance module and the PR511 head to be sure.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:15:04 AM by rhblakeman »
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dave w

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So two questions then in summary - does the ON command on the PR511 sensor get followed by an OFF command at the end of the delay and does the continuous function of the PUM01 universal module stay on once an ON command is issued to it's unit code and go off when an OFF command is sent to it's unit code?
Yes
Yes
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dhouston

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Soldering an external antenna wire to a remote (e.g. HR12A) or any X10 transmitter with a PCB trace antenna will almost certainly detune it so the transceiver will no longer hear it. Been there, done that.
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rhblakeman

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Thanks for the answers on the ON/OFF commands. Also thanks for the insight on the external antenna but I might try it on my hand held remote for experimentation as I can always remove it after I explore.

I did a test of a lamp module with a light attached this morning using the sensor side of the floodlight sensor head and I found out that this will all work out once I have a PUM01 and PSC01 in hand. Time to search the sources and best pricing. Eventually I will reautomate with a computer connected controller as well for other things but what I have in mind should function alone without the need for any controller boxes. I guess the sensor head of the PR511 is a controller in it's own right anyway.
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