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[gattaca]

Hi, Like most of you, I have been X10ing for many years.  I am posting b/c I am thoroughly confounded on this one.  I spent much of today troubleshooting.  I'm waiting for my XTBM to return so I can discern the signals (or lack thereof) near the main panels and XTB-IIR.

First I have and XTB-IIR and 2 x XTB-ANR installed near my main breaker panels.  These have been awesome and I've not had any X10 issues since installing these a few years ago, until now on this circuit which has not really had any X10 units in play before now.

What started as  simple project to add 1 X10-Pro XPT (Rev A) controller to a circuit which is near the farthest end of my home say 80 - 100' of Romex 14/2 to the panel has turned into a detective quest.

1) Installed XPT unit, tested  H8 ON nada.  Note: signaling a H8 X10 Appliance Module on that circuit, in that room works OK
2) Installed 2nd XPT unit in same location, tested - nada.  Same note as above.
3) Unplugged everything on THAT circuit (UPS, night lights, CFLs, etc.. ) still nada  (interesting point is that before unplugged the UPS, an XPT transmit H8 ON  would kick the UPS into alert mode briefly) so I thought I had it  as a signal sucker - but when unplugged, nope, same results - nada
4) Installed Leviton 16400 transmitter in same location thinking I had marginal XPTs, nope, same note as 1, 2 .
5) So then I take my old reliable Stanley Maxicontroller and plug in into the same circuit (outlet right below the switch) - transmit H8 ON, everything works fine.  Target devices On/Off perfectly at other locations in home.  The X10 Relay Appliance Module works fine in other parts of the house.  WTH?

At this point, I do not know what to suspect other than the Romex length back to the panel may at the edge of the limit for the Leviton 16400 and XPT transmitters but not the Stanley Maxicontroller signaling?   I find it very odd that with the XTB-IIR in place that a good signal is not reaching the XTB-IIR to be repeated and amplified.  

Once I have my XTBM returned, I may know more about the actual levels reaching the XTB-IIR at the man panels as I have twin outlets (one on each phase) installed  there for servicing and testing like this but I've never needed them before now.

I plan to start breaker flipping as soon as my partner is out of the house b/c t drives her crazy otherwise with lights and stuff going on/off and I'd like keep sleeping inside    

Any further suggestions as for what to be looking for?  Unfortunately there's no hidden outlets...   Thanks.

 

[Brian H]

Getting back the XTBM will be a big help in troubleshooting.
Then you can verify the signal from the XPT is reaching the XTB-IIR at the breaker box and that it is the proper X10 House Code and Unit Code being sent.

It is very possible the old Stanley Controller does have a stronger power line signal than the other controllers you have tested.

[JeffVolp]

I find it very odd that with the XTB-IIR in place that a good signal is not reaching the XTB-IIR to be repeated and amplified.

The XTB-IIR can repeat valid X10 signals down to about 50mVpp in a low-noise environment.  I did a test here some time ago measuring the signal loss from a Maxi Controller in my lab to the distribution panel.  The wire run is about 50 feet.  As I recall, the signal loss was about 90%, and we don't have any serious signal suckers.  Increase the length of the run and add a couple of signal suckers near the panel, and I can understand why not enough signal would reach the panel for the XTB-IIR to repeat it.

I believe your upgraded XTBM was delivered today.  It should tell you what is really going on.

Jeff

[gattaca]

Hi Guys,  Thanks so much for the replies! 

  I was suspecting distance was in play. 

The drop from the main panel in the garage just to this room ~ 80' of 14/2.  This is NOT including the up/down hopping around the room outlets.  Because of the way this house was constructed, all the feeds were up / down the walls as verticals rather hopping across wall. So depending on where you plug in, the total romex distance to the XTB-IIR near the garage panels could be 150' - 200+' total.   

I'll do some more testing tomorrow (Brain is on overload)  but my gut is telling me (based on seeing this in another basement circuit before XTB-IIR was installed) I'm going to have take several counter measures:

1) Putting ALL my known signal suckers and noisy toys (UPSes mainly)  behind filters XTB-F15 filters and then watching / testing for other suckers.
2) Systematically reducing and eliminating my uber noisy CFLs.  I have some bad ones which when on, will block ALL the X10 info on that circuit - even at shorter distances.   Nasty little buggers..
   Note:  Based on reading so far, I'm considering replacing them with CREE LED slowly room by room as budgeting permits.  From what I've read so far, X10ers have had better than chance results with various forms of the CREE units.  Nearly all my lighting is R30/R38 open cans and from the Youttube teardowns, CREE seems to have designed the power supplies to block some noise.   It will be an easy test, replace the units in my office and see if the signal can make it out.  Today it does not if the CFLs are ON.
3) Deploy an "active" XTBR on this one circuit in that room to amplify the signal at that point so it will hopefully make it back to the main XTB-IIR in the garage.   I'll have to investigate on how to best set this up so the circuit XTBR and master XTB-IIR  (garage) minimize X10 signal ping pong...

Thoughts?  Thanks.

[JeffVolp]

Deploy an "active" XTBR on this one circuit in that room to amplify the signal at that point so it will hopefully make it back to the main XTB-IIR in the garage.   I'll have to investigate on how to best set this up so the circuit XTBR and master XTB-IIR  (garage) minimize X10 signal ping pong...

The XTBR has two different modes of boosting signals.  One is a normal repeater mode that will receive weak signals and repeat them at a much higher level.  The other is a "real-time boost" mode that boosts a relatively strong signal to a much higher level bit-by-bit as it is received.  That takes the place of the direct X10 boost function of the earlier version where the transmitter was plugged directly into the XTBR.

Both modes are enabled by default, but each can be disabled through mode options.  To prevent command ping-pong you could just disable the repeater function and plug the XTBR into a receptacle near the transmitter so it receives a strong enough signal to trigger the real-time boost.

Jeff

[gattaca]

Hi,  Below are my testing results from XTBM in the outlets in the room back to the XTB-IIR (garage):

1) CFL's are killing ALL X10 signals.  With any CFLs ON, I read 0.00Vpp when transmitting anything on the wire trying to carry X10.  The XTBM shows no noise though.  
   solution --> Replace all CFLs with CREE BR30 LED bulbs
   Note: My limited testing of replacing CFLs with CREE BR30 in my office, indicate no signal degradation and no noise (detectable by XTBM) on the line when on.  
   With the CFLs ON, the signals were at 0.00Vpp vs 4.2Vpp with CREE BR30.  Note: again, the XTBM did not report any noise with either the CFL's or CREE BR30 units.
2) Found a long not used / dead TM751 in an outlet behind a dresser (blush) removed it but it did not improve the signal situation.
   solution --> disposed
3) The UPS degrades the signal slightly with minimal signal drops from 1.2 Vpp (best) to 0.68 - 0.90 Vpp  
   solution --> install XTB-PF15 on outlets with these UPSes
4) XTBM pinging / testing results to XTB-IIR (in Garage + 80 - 150' cabling away) shows 0.00Vpp in 4 of the 6 outlets (best case).  Outlets in 2 of 6 show 0.68 - 1.10 Vpp at best.
   solution --> install XTBR on THIS circuit to see if it can boost the X10 signal  on this circuit enough to get it back to the main XTB-IIR in the garage.

My general experience now w/ the latest CFL's I installed about a year ago (purchased from HD) is are they are a X10 (and other likely) signaling nightmare!  Nasty little varmints.

FWIW, here's a breakdown on the CREE BR30 LED bulbs..
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaYRuCpaZH0
   http://www.designingwithleds.com/cree-led-65w-equivalent-br30-flood-light-tear-down-and-review/

Any other thoughts?  
Does what I've outlined seem like a good plan to get this circuit performing like it should and generally clean up my home's signal space?   (No more CFL's for me!...)

Cheers  

[Brian H]

Thanks for the very detailed tests.
The CFLs most likely had a capacitor directly across the power inputs. That would correct any noise from its electronics getting back on the power lines. That would also kill any X10 signals like noise.

I did have some CFLs that didn't suck up X10. They had a small coil on the line input before the capacitor. Though the coil may have added a few cents to the design.

I have some of the Cree A Shell type bulbs in use. My XTBM didn't show any effects of having them in use. They do dim well for me.
I have also tried some of the Switch Lighting Infinia bulbs and they also seem to work well.

[gattaca]

Reporting back.  JED's XTBR (with repeating mode # 16 turned OFF) solved my signal problem on that long 150'+ home run back to the main breaker panels.  X10 signals originating from this room are showing up in the 5-8 V range (CFLs off) - depending on which outlet the XTBM Meter is attached to.  I still have 9 CFLs on this circuit to deal with but all in due time.
Thanks!   

[Brian H]

Thank you for the update.
It looks like you are making progress in solving your problem.