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[dspiffy]

Has anyone come up with a solution to this?  Short of trying different bulbs until you find ones with the least interference, and/or isolating every single lamp?

I use X10 at home and in a commercial facility.  LED conversions have rendered modules on different circuits, and especially on different phases (even with a coupling capacitor) all but useless.

[Brian H]

Are you asking about replacement LED bulbs that are incandescent bulb replacements or maybe LED Fluorescent Tube replacements?

It may not be noise from the LED replacements. They could be signal suckers as most have a simple cap in its  AC Input to keep their electronics noise off of the power lines. That cap also absorbs X10 power line signals.

Are you trying to run dimmable {some are not dimmable} LED replacement on X10 two wire wall switches that are not made for any type of loads but incandescent?

A plain coupling cap between the two incoming power lines is the least effective way to do it. That way was recommended by X10 before we had so many electronic devices making power line noise and signal sucking.

A passively tuned X10 phase coupler like the XPCP would be the next best choice.

Best thing is a full coupler repeater. With the gold standard JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR or another X10 coupler repeater. Like the X10Pro XPCR.

Jeff's great Troubleshooting Tutorials may give you some added information.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

[dspiffy]

I have had two separate issues:

I work for a museum and we use X10 in two different rooms.  In one room, there are track lights, and there are several antique fans connected to the track lights with outlets, and there is a module on each one.  The controller is also connected to the track lights.  When we switched some of the bulbs to LED, the modules stopped responding.  They plan to convert all the track lights to LED (Over 100 bulbs) and I will have no control over what bulbs they buy.

I use it in my home.  I only use it for lighting.  Up until now I only used it for my bedroom lighting and for my Christmas decorations.  I recently decided to add it on some accent lighting on my living room and dining room.  There are two light modules in the bedroom with dimmable LEDs plugged into them.  There are two appliance modules in the living room with fluorescent lights plugged into them.  There is one light module in the dining room with dimmable LEDs plugged into it.  There are two mini controllers in the bedroom and one in the living room.  The living room controller does not control the bedroom or the dining room.  The bedroom controllers do not control the living room or the dining room.  The only things on these circuits are lights (now all LED plus the fluorescent in the living room), ceiling fans, and televisions.

I havent actually tried a coupling capacitor at home, what I have done is troubleshooted with the electric stove and dryer on.  If I unplug all the LED lights on the living room circuit (NOT controlled by X10) I can sometimes get the dining room lights to respond to the living room control.  My temporary solution has been to run an extension cord from the living room to the dining room.

[Brian H]

Thank you for the added information on both installations.
It should help us in trying to find some solutions.

[dave w]

Has anyone come up with a solution to this?  Short of trying different bulbs until you find ones with the least interference, and/or isolating every single lamp?

I use X10 at home and in a commercial facility.  LED conversions have rendered modules on different circuits, and especially on different phases (even with a coupling capacitor) all but useless.

From your description, it could be signal sucker filter caps as Brian described, or electrical noise from the LED bulbs. My $0.02 is the coupler/repeater that Brian mentioned and/or filters like the XPPF or the XPF for loads over about three amp.

Read the Troubleshooting Tutorial in Brian's comments and look at the JVDE -  XTBIIR repeater. BTW Jeff Volp (JVDE Company) sells and may loan out X10 XTBM noise meters which will help you determine if the problem is noise or signal sucking.

AFA the museum, How big is the museum? Do you know if the building is three phase? If three phase, do you know if the two rooms on the same three phase circuit? Or if the building is on standard single phase (split phase) do you know if the two rooms  could be on the same circuit (doubtful). Filters on the track lights (between the X10 module and the track) may solve. 

[dspiffy]

The building is three phase with multiple transformers.  Each X10 system is on circuits sharing the same phase from the same panel.

[dave w]

You said the fans were plugged into the track lights. So the track is line voltage and not low voltage like 12V. I am guessing the fixtures are 120V also and not 12V.   Then the museum should be an easy fix, although museum management may not agree. Leave one incandescent bulb in the track and see if the remaining LEDs work better.

[dspiffy]

It took no more than a half dozen cheap LEDs per track to make the modules stop responding.  The better LEDs didnt seem to bother them.

[dhouston]

It took no more than a half dozen cheap LEDs per track to make the modules stop responding.  The better LEDs didnt seem to bother them.

This is a strong indication that the problem is the LED capacitance rather than noise. The effects of the capacitance will be additive while the max noise level will merely equal the noisiest unit (i.e. not additive). Given that you are dealing with hundreds of LEDs, the only fix will be to replace X10 modules with modules that are directly controlled by RF - e.g. WiFi, Z-Wave, etc.

[Brian H]

It took no more than a half dozen cheap LEDs per track to make the modules stop responding.  The better LEDs didn't seem to bother them.

I agree with Dave.
The cheap LED bulbs probably have a simple capacitor across the AC input so they don't spew electronic noise on the power lines. That capacitor also will absorb X10 power line commands. The more expensive ones may have a input coil before the capacitor and will be less likely to absorb the X10 power line commands.

[JeffVolp]

The effects of the capacitance will be additive while the max noise level will merely equal the noisiest unit (i.e. not additive).

Don't totally rule out noise.  I have three CFLs in a ceiling fixture in my office/lab that I use for noise testing.  One of them generates a steady stream of noise, but the three together create an undulating pattern as the noise sums together that almost mimics an X10 transmission.  In fact I have witnessed an X10 appliance module set to P1 switch on twice by itself over the years while those CFLs were on.  It has never switched by itself when those lights are off.

Jeff

[dspiffy]

FYI:  I never solved this issue.

In my home, I just moved all of the X10 modules and controllers to the same circuit.  Involved running a couple discrete extension cords.  Everything works fine now.

We havent converted the museum yet.

[gattaca]

Posting my LED bulb experiences here:

1) Using the CREE CR6-800L-27K/40K LED 6" Cans - no issues, no noise
2) Using Sylvania Ultra RT5/6 LED Can Light - 79753 - 100W Equivalent - 4000K - 90 CRI - no issues, no noise
3) Nicor DLG56-10-120-4K-WH - 5/6 Inch LED Gimbal Downlight - 4000K - 90W Equivalent - NOISE, NOISE and more NOISE, enough to cause communicaitons issue and PCS lighting controls to turn on and flash that funky yellow.

I'll be returning the Nicors

I've also had issues with Cooper Dimmers blasting out X10 noise enough that I'll be sticking with Levitons and Lutron dimmers from here on out.

G. Mobley