Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tuicemen]

Would it be possible to unlock the "Is there any replacement for the old Plato controller system?" thread since it is fairly new?

Yes, it was locked to get the Voice Assistant discussion separate and moved to this thread.
Done!

[HA Dave]

I know.... a lot of people would just rather wing a definition for AI. But it just not that simple. And even if it was... AI has become a non-regulated "term". Which means different industries and/or different corporations may choose somewhat different and/or non-conventual uses for the term.

But there is some interesting reading Here which include plenty of other links for more research.... including a Wikipedia post. 

At least it points out some of the gravity AI and the cloud brings to computers, the Internet, commerce, and modern life in general. 

https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/doc/2017/artificial-intelligence-and-machine-learning-policy-paper/?gclid=CjwKCAjw1KLkBRBZEiwARzyE76gwkUhfBW8rWlYu1cV-TT48WI5_WKimkYxDqKxEJqk_pHkvDELnFRoCcSgQAvD_BwE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

[bkenobi]

Kaplan and Haenlein define AI as “a system’s ability to correctly interpret external data, to learn from such data, and to use those learnings to achieve specific goals and tasks through flexible adaptation

...so using a skill which tells Alexa how to interact with a specific input is not AI by that definition.  The core of AI is that the system must be able to take in information that the programmer/designer didn't explicitly dictate a response to and the AI formulating an appropriate response.  Telling Alexa that if it's dark and motion is sensed to turn a light on is not AI.  That is simply responding to triggers that the HA system designer explicitly provided instructions to.  If the system detects motion/noise/window break sensors/etc in your home when it already determined based on other observations that you are on vacation and automatically determines the best action is to call the police...THAT is AI.  But hey, I'm just reading the definition of AI off some web site I found a link to on a forum.

[James G]

I thought the Wikipedia article was excellent as it covers all forms of AI we have been discussing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

[HA Dave]

Kaplan and Haenlein define AI as “a system’s ability to correctly interpret external data, to learn from such data, and to use those learnings to achieve specific goals and tasks through flexible adaptation

...so using a skill which tells Alexa how to interact with a specific input is not AI by that definition.  ……..

Actually.... since the Echo/Alexa itself is a learning AI device... the functions it is used for, are also (by even the above definition) AI.

For over a decade.... I had Voice Recognition Software (MS SAPI5 and BVC) controlling my X10.... plus a IR device. Although the software did access a weather site (for weather reports) and could read emails and news..... it was shy of IA. Tuicemen worked on/created a software that looked for the Bluetooth on my mobile phone.... and I worked very hard here with resident detection/counting.

We were years ahead of many..... but well shy of Amazon's AI device. I understand people don't really understand what this thing is.... or how it changes everything. But Alexa is AI....

[HA Dave]

I thought the Wikipedia article was excellent as it covers all forms of AI we have been discussing:

We? You have a mouse in your pocket tonight? I thought you believed AI had to be "self-aware".

[bkenobi]

AI must be learning and not programmed.  Calling a voice controller shy of AI is like saying you threw a rock and were shy of landing a human on the moon.  Watson was called AI and was probably the closest that has been come to so far. It could read vasts amountso of data from various sources, build a database of knowledge, and with quick response time, answer questions that it was capable of interpreting. Nothing against that system, but it did cheat in order to beat Jennings though.

In any case, AWS is a massively capable system that processes astronomical quantities of data. It handles large numbers of requests simultaneously and near instantaneously.  But, calling what people use it for AI is closer to the rock than the moon.  Use it how you want, but don't claim it is what it's not and pretend you are better than others when they don't embrace the same vision. You aren't wrong for designing your system your way, but choosing another technically more challenging/rewarding path isn't wrong either.

[James G]

We? You have a mouse in your pocket tonight? I thought you believed AI had to be "self-aware".

I said that the site Wikipedia site was nice because it covered most definitions of AI. I suppose my definition is along the lines of:
Artificial general intelligence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence

I guess what I am saying is use whichever definition you like and then let others know so they know where you are coming from. In terms of being "self-aware", I guess we are entering philosophy.

[HA Dave]

AI must be learning and not programmed.

Alexa IS a learning software.

…...  Use it how you want, but don't claim it is what it's not and pretend you are better than others when they don't embrace the same vision. You aren't wrong for designing your system your way, but choosing another technically more challenging/rewarding path isn't wrong either.

You skim don't you. You don't actually read.... you mostly just skim the text to get an idea of what was written.... and react to what you then imagine (or feel) is topical. Alexa is AI.... not because I think so.... but because all the experts think so.

I neither pretend (or believe) I am better than others that don't embrace the same vision [I do]. It ain't even my damn vision! I have no special talent, skill, or ability to predict the future. But I have been trained to recognize paradigms... and to weight those preconceived ideals with actual events on the ground. The reality is.... Amazon has sold MASSIVE amounts of automation products with it's AI product at the center of what is now.... the new [home automation] normal.

To be brutally honest.... I could NOT care less about how you or others operate their Home Automation.
But I do care about X10. And if X10 doesn't get with the program.... and catch-up with where the customer base is heading.... X10 will end-up selling ONS on Ebay. And that helps no one.

[HA Dave]

I said that the site Wikipedia site was nice because it covered most definitions of AI. I suppose my definition is along the lines of:
Artificial general intelligence:

That's what I love about America. Our language is free enough... we can say most anything we want. But think about this:  Wouldn't get confusing if every vender, manufacturer, marketer, salesperson, and catalog..... called every car part by a different name?... or their own made-up name?

I guess what I am saying is use whichever definition you like and then let others know so they know where you are coming from. In terms of being "self-aware", I guess we are entering philosophy.

Fortunately industry and government has what is called standardization boards. That's how we keep things recognizable and understandable. Everyone is still free to say whatever they'd like. But that doesn't actually change what things are. But thank God... everyone here at this forum has BOTH... some sort of Internet device, and a web browser. So the knowledge is free for the picking.

Unfortunately.... busting up those old rock solid paradigms... is painful... and often as not... impossible.   

[James G]

Here we are in 100% agreement. I really care about X-10 too. From what I understand, it is still the biggest home control in the world.

The existing company seems to be improving. I had a problem where an appliance controller could not turn off a CFL because the controller just turned back on from the feedback. I contacted X-10 and they suggested a new module. Solved the problem.

[HA Dave]

……... I really care about X-10 too. From what I understand, it is still the biggest home control in the world.

Your kidding right?!?!?!? Amazon sold more Alexa related merchandise last month..... than X10 has since 1975.

We're smack in the middle of a Home Automation Golden Era. NEVER has Home Automation seen such a huge popularity. Amazon has sold over 60 million AI [Echo-Alexa] devices alone. Home Automation "kits" are EVERYWHERE.... and not even ONE X10 vendor to be found.... anywhere. Even back-in-the-day when we had Radio Shack stores... where you could buy X10 (as well as their RS branded X10) Home Automation was nothing more than a niche market. Used by electronic hobbyists and a few home owners for "lighting solutions" to problem areas.

Yeah... once upon a time.... X10 was the bee's knees. But now.... thanks mostly to the input from members of this very forum... X10 has been relegated to the favored protocol of those who fear the Internet. But I guess this could still workout for us X10 users. I mean.... maybe the Internet is just a passing fad.

[HA Dave]

Here we are in 100% agreement.

Except.... I've been almost singularly promoting the idea of returning X10 to a smart (connected) form of Home Automation. An idea... actually (I believe) created by X10. Yet if you read the posts here. You'll read true (sometimes vile) "tin-foil-hat type" opposition to the new AI devices. Or... those who deny that AI even exists! Pure conspiracy theory, crazy-stuff.... like if the machines aren't self-aware... it ain't REAL AI.

No I am alone in this promotion of AI and X10 Home Automation. But I can't lose! I am going to be fine. I will continue to have a wonderful setup... with or without X10.   X10 is the one that will lose.

[Tuicemen]

Except.... I've been almost singularly promoting the idea of returning X10 to a smart (connected) form of Home Automation. An idea... actually (I believe) created by X10.

Oh come on now Dave!
Most if not all that have commented in this thread use a voice assistant in their Home Automation setup of some sort!
The use of X10 with any voice Assistant is (and always has been) totally possible just like controlling any brand TV yet few TV manufactures have Alexa skills!

Just because some, most or all disagree with your definition of AI doesn't mean your a sole supporter of AI!
 No one is denying the benefits of any AI to AH & X10 no mater what their definition is!
Preaching your definition of AI will not change any ones perception of it and if you look over the posts your not the Only one promoting X10 and a Smart Home but your promoting your definition of AI.
 

[JeffVolp]

Most if not all that have commented in this thread use a voice assistant in their Home Automation setup of some sort!

Yes, Tuicemen helped me get X10 working with Alexa over a year ago.  I even bought a used laptop to dedicate to it 24/7.  But I found that we didn't really use it except when demonstrating it to guests.  Maybe that is because the house is already smart enough to pretty much take care of itself.  One big factor was for the Ocelot to monitor temperature so it could adjust irrigation and auxiliary ventilation accordingly.  Most everything else is driven by sunrise/sunset, time of year, and some motion sensors.  That laptop now sits unused.  No need to waste power.

Previously I had commented about using a PalmpPad, but the only time I normally use one is to either cancel a scheduled irrigation cycle due to rain predicted for the next day or for pressing "4_OFF" as I pass by it on the end table to start the bedtime sequence.  I suppose I could have told Alexa to start the bedtime sequence, but I just find the PalmPad more convenient.  And usually the Ocelot starts the bedtime sequence by itself by beginning to turn off lights at this end of the house to remind me it is time to go to bed.

Jeff