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Have you tried the PiX10Hub yet?

Yes but I've moved on as it didn't perform as well as it was hyped up to .
- 0 (0%)
Yes but I only use the HG or HA-Bridge part.
- 1 (7.1%)
Yes and I'd like to have other things added (please suggest)
- 1 (7.1%)
Yes it has lived up to its hype
- 4 (28.6%)
No I use HG & or HA-Bridge on Windows
- 0 (0%)
No I already run HG & or HA-Bridge on a PI
- 1 (7.1%)
No but it is on my bucket list
- 1 (7.1%)
No using a Pi is just not for me
- 6 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 14


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Author Topic: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub  (Read 2582 times)

brobin

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Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 11:32:40 AM »

IMHO, I think it's fair to say that most X10 users are, at this point, an older group (myself included) looking to keep things simple.  Unless whatever controllers we've used for the last umpteen years become troublesome there's little motivation to change.  My Stargate still soldiers on after 25 years with little maintenance and others are probably still mostly satisfied with what they're using.  The only thing missing for me was Alexa control which is what brought me back to this forum several years ago (thank you T!).  If my Stargate (and multiple spares) were no longer functional then delving into HG would be more attractive.

That said, if I were looking at a new controller, I'd want to spend my time building out the schedule and getting it operational rather than gathering and assembling the hardware and software components and I'd want minimal maintenance after that.  In short, I'd probably want a packaged product ready to go rather than a 'roll my own' option.  Of course, the field for that is limited for ones that still support X10 but there are at least a few left like Universal Devices, Smartenit, Home Seer and HA all of which are reasonably priced.  I'm not opposed to 'rolling my own' if that's the only way to get what I want, but it's not my first choice.

So, having taken the longwinded way to answering your question, I think offering a ready to go SD card would be helpful and you'd sell a few at $20-30, but it'd be even more attractive packaged with the hardware.  In essence, this is exactly what Home Seer, Smartenit and now HA are doing, all providing a cased Pi or similar with software loaded and ready to go with supported Alexa/GH integration.

Regarding pricing, for comparison there are ebay sellers offering Pi-Hole AD cards for $20 and loaded on a Pi4b for $110.

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bkenobi

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 11:58:34 AM »

The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.

Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!

Tuicemen

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 02:15:43 PM »

The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.
Yes, however every program created tends to undergo a stagnation period if there are several contributing not so much.
I and most of the users involved in creation of the PiX10Hub think HG is the easiest to setup for X10, of all the Pi Home Automation software  tested.
It also IMO has the best looking interface.
Quote
Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!
I believe Gene published just the X10 driver part on Github. So it should be easy to create something like MOCHAD from it.
I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.
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brobin

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 02:53:01 PM »

I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.

From my experience watching you T, I think you'd have it done by the weekend!  rofl
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petera

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 03:25:38 PM »

The REAL question here is.....are you looking for an X10 solution or an Alexa solution. The last time I checked AHP, the software of choice for most X10 users here didn't do Alexa directly. Neither does HomeGenie. Yes there are intermediaries that can be added between both options that will provide some form of Alexa functionality and will work until they don't.That's when the trouble starts for the Alexa junkies.Reliability and continuity is the key.

It's been mentioned here on many occasions that if Alexa is your priority buy a cheap hub with a registered Alexa skill which can be easily integrated into HomeGenie. That's your reliability and continuity issue solved. Anything else will need ongoing maintenance and a certain skill set to reconfigure in the event of Alexa responding "sorry I didn't find Bedtime light".

My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.

I've lost count of the amount of users I've stepped through some very simple steps to get HomeGenie and as a result X10 working satisfactorily from a blank SD card to a fully functioning HG setup via PM. Out of all the users I've helped only one has been back to me since and I sent them on their merry way with a solution. The trick here was to keep clutter to a minimum so if their setup went south they could easily put it right themselves.The mere mention of Alexa and my advice was the cheap hub route. I've got Alexa working directly in HomeGenie for another HomeGenie user but he has the skills to maintain it and it's way beyond most users here.

Simplicity is the key to migration here.If you offer something any more complex than AHP you are encouraging bailout rather than bailin.It might be more worthwhile concentrating on the features that AHP offer and trying to replicate that model in HomeGenie. You might be surprised at the renewed interest in HomeGenie as a result.

Personally speaking a solid set of install instructions or a well written script far outweigh the benefits any image that could be provided at this stage but it's entirely up to you if you want to keep plugging away at it.

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petera

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Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 03:34:50 PM »

IMHO, I think it's fair to say that most X10 users are, at this point, an older group (myself included) looking to keep things simple.  Unless whatever controllers we've used for the last umpteen years become troublesome there's little motivation to change.  My Stargate still soldiers on after 25 years with little maintenance and others are probably still mostly satisfied with what they're using.  The only thing missing for me was Alexa control which is what brought me back to this forum several years ago (thank you T!).  If my Stargate (and multiple spares) were no longer functional then delving into HG would be more attractive.

That said, if I were looking at a new controller, I'd want to spend my time building out the schedule and getting it operational rather than gathering and assembling the hardware and software components and I'd want minimal maintenance after that.  In short, I'd probably want a packaged product ready to go rather than a 'roll my own' option.  Of course, the field for that is limited for ones that still support X10 but there are at least a few left like Universal Devices, Smartenit, Home Seer and HA all of which are reasonably priced.  I'm not opposed to 'rolling my own' if that's the only way to get what I want, but it's not my first choice.

So, having taken the longwinded way to answering your question, I think offering a ready to go SD card would be helpful and you'd sell a few at $20-30, but it'd be even more attractive packaged with the hardware.  In essence, this is exactly what Home Seer, Smartenit and now HA are doing, all providing a cased Pi or similar with software loaded and ready to go with supported Alexa/GH integration.

Regarding pricing, for comparison there are ebay sellers offering Pi-Hole AD cards for $20 and loaded on a Pi4b for $110.

If you are selling on anything Linux related you need to understand the Linux kernel backwards,have built a kernel or drivers and have solid grounding in all things Linux.It's not for the newcomer.You could get yourself badly burnt otherwise. Remember all things Linux are free to use, free to distribute with all the relevant licences intact and all references to sources used to build anything must be included. This is not like the old proprietary Windows binaries back in the day. You'll have the Linux Foundation on your tail otherwise.
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petera

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2021, 03:49:34 PM »

The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.

Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!

HEYU is rock solid for PLC.Mochad has a few subtle variations and each version solves one problem but creates another.Once the service daemon is set up correctly and the usb udev rules are correctly constructed generally Mochad runs flawlessly. The fact that it resides outside of an application in the case of Home Assistant,OpenHAB,Domoticz does lend itself to operational issues from time to time.

given the time there's no doubt you could completely unwind the HomeGenie core code.In fact that's what happened when the likes of the MIG installer was extracted from the core code to allow for a more flexible install of certain facets of HG. In fact from the revisions you provided recently I imagine you're not far off forking the project and with some assistance providing your own version.Remember GPIO would be a non runner on many RPI boards without your work and some might find their projects sunk before they sailed.People may want to be a bit more grateful for your efforts. :)%
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 03:57:45 PM by petera »
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Tuicemen

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2021, 03:53:39 PM »

I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.

From my experience watching you T, I think you'd have it done by the weekend!  rofl
rofl thanks for the vote of confidence, but my eyes and memory have started get real foggy lately :-[.
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Tuicemen

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2021, 04:04:06 PM »


given the time there's no doubt you could completely unwind the HomeGenie core code.In fact that what happened when the likes of the MIG installer was extracted from the core code to allow for a more flexible install of certain facets of HG. In fact from the revisions you provided recently I imagine you're not far off forking the project and with some assistance providing your own version.Remember GPIO would be a non runner on many RPI boards without your work and some might find their projects sunk before they sailed.People may want to be a bit more grateful for your efforts. :)%

bkenobi, I must agree with petera your work getting the GPIO pin Program working again in HG was outstanding. I look forward to using it at some point. I'm just wondering what your using the HG GPIO Pin Program for?
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bkenobi

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2021, 05:10:49 PM »

I only use it for a simple motion detector, but it's the primary driver for my HA setup.  Look up the Advanced Smart Lights code if you want to see a Rube Goldberg approach to turning on a light!   rofl

Tuicemen

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2021, 05:46:54 PM »

I only use it for a simple motion detector, but it's the primary driver for my HA setup.  Look up the Advanced Smart Lights code if you want to see a Rube Goldberg approach to turning on a light!   rofl
Nice,
I had thought about a Motion sensor GPIO project but still going over what for or how I'd use it based on where my Pi boards currently sit.
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tsltrek

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2021, 03:00:39 PM »


My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.


Exactly.
Last month, I stumbled on PiX10Hub while surfing and thought "might be a fun project to have a backup for AHP".  Procuring and setting up the pizero was very easy for me...I find working in/configuring HG to be the most frustrating part.  And I only require some simple lighting macros (sunrise/set with offset, repeat command for reliability, set time off, christmas schedule).  I'm just looking for a replacement/backup for AHP.  Took me longer than it should to figure out that cron expression is a standard  ::)  Surfing multiple forums for solutions is a real detractor too.  But this is the price to pay to stay on x10.  Thanks to all of you for the great work, but the audience is small and as the technical difficulty rises the audience shrinks.  The only reason I didn't abandon x10 and go with a more modern solution is most of them require the cloud for remote control....and I'm cheap  rofl
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 03:22:34 PM by tsltrek »
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petera

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2021, 07:20:38 PM »


My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.


Exactly.
Last month, I stumbled on PiX10Hub while surfing and thought "might be a fun project to have a backup for AHP".  Procuring and setting up the pizero was very easy for me...I find working in/configuring HG to be the most frustrating part.  And I only require some simple lighting macros (sunrise/set with offset, repeat command for reliability, set time off, christmas schedule).  I'm just looking for a replacement/backup for AHP.  Took me longer than it should to figure out that cron expression is a standard  ::)  Surfing multiple forums for solutions is a real detractor too.  But this is the price to pay to stay on x10.  Thanks to all of you for the great work, but the audience is small and as the technical difficulty rises the audience shrinks.  The only reason I didn't abandon x10 and go with a more modern solution is most of them require the cloud for remote control....and I'm cheap  rofl

Most if not all X10 questions can be answered from here http://old.homegenie.club:8080/www.homegenie.it/forum/index.html

Although it is an archive you can search directly from Google by starting your search with "old homegenie forum" . Of course there's the homegenie club forum currently active and it still has X10 users on board so ask away there too. Believe me X10 on HomeGenie is quite straightforward though you wouldn't think it sometimes when it goes off topic  rofl
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tsltrek

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2021, 03:14:47 PM »

A new day and a better perspective.  Turns out actually reading the scheduling section of the HG manual and then using the built in scheduler to create the cron expressions...makes a whole lot more sense!   rofl Thanks again to you guys (petera, Tuicemen, bkenobi) ...there is a ton of information on these forums...much appreciated.   :)%
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bkenobi

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Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2021, 05:45:17 PM »

The bulk of the most useful info on HG is archived on the old HG forum over at the HG club.  If you have a technical question, it most likely was covered over there.  Your best bet is to go to google and search using:

Code: [Select]
site:http://old.homegenie.club search terms
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