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Author Topic: Insteon as we know it is gone  (Read 4143 times)

brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2022, 11:42:29 AM »

Looks like it might be time to optimize some of my assets by selling off my Insteon inventory. The prices on ebay are crazy!
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Brian H

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2022, 05:29:48 PM »

OH yes. The Ebay prices are outrageous.
Those with the now almost useless HUBs. Do have a few options. There are a few programs that can use a HUB to control and setup Insteon.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2022, 03:02:48 PM »

The XTB-232 conversion has turned out to be both simpler and more complex than anticipated.

Simpler because there is no handshaking with the computer.  It receives an X10 command and just fires it off to the computer at 19.2Kbaud, so that takes place in the half cycle after the command is recognized.  The SmartHome protocol just assumes the computer is ready to accept it whenever it is sent, and that it receives it correctly.

More complex because the XTB-232 was built for the CM11A protocol, which handshakes with the computer to establish communication and verify data was transferred correctly.  This process can take seconds when the computer is in standby, and the code is set up accordingly.  So all of that must be eliminated.

Also more complex because there is no handshaking on incoming commands, so it must be ready to receive a burst of serial bytes anytime, regardless of what else it is doing.

The XTB-232 is set up to both receive and transmit extended commands.  Nothing in the SmartHome protocol supports that, so extended commands will be ignored.  I may include an option to turn a preset dim command from the computer into an extended dim command with reduced resolution to allow it to work with Leviton dimmers.

I still need to know what the Harmony does at powerup to verify it is connected to the IM.

Also, is there a problem if the Harmony receives an upload for each half of the doublet?  Does the second serial transmission have to be suppressed when both halves of the doublet is received?  ( A1, A1, A_ON, A_ON.)  If so, I assume it would still need every bright and dim command in a sequence.

Jeff
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brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2022, 03:17:00 PM »

What would I gave to do to observe that?

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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2022, 03:44:32 PM »

What would I gave to do to observe that?

Maybe all that is needed is to connect the Harmony serial port to a terminal emulator on a PC and log (in hex) what it does when power is cycled.

If that isn't sufficient, you can split off the RS232 into the terminal emulator to log any interaction between the units.  It could be done twice - once to log what the Harmony is sending, and once to log what is coming back from the IM.  That method could also check whether the IM sends both halves of the incoming X10 doublet.

Redundant commands should be the same as holding a button down too long on a manual controller, so I suspect it would be OK.

Jeff
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brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2022, 04:07:46 PM »

I'll see what I can do on that.
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Brian H

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2022, 04:17:27 PM »

Actually the PLM is supposed to receive the command and sent the message back to the sender. With an ACK if it was OK or a NAK on the end of the command for a sort of a handshake.
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brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2022, 04:22:41 PM »

There may be more info in this document (different from the PLM doc): http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Developers_Guide_20070816a.pdf
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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2022, 06:31:52 PM »

Actually the PLM is supposed to receive the command and sent the message back to the sender. With an ACK if it was OK or a NAK on the end of the command for a sort of a handshake.

Yes, that is true on transmission.  But the ACK or NAK echo can only be issued if the command is received.  The CM11A handshaking lets the computer know when it can accept data.  That is not true with the SmartHome protocol.  An incoming burst of data may happen anytime.  There are routines that cannot be interrupted, and I have to make sure the serial port buffer will not be overrun or the command could be corrupted.

Perhaps the Harmony would re-issue the command if it does not receive the echo back within a second or so?

There is no conformation on receiving an X10 command that the computer actually accepted the command.

Jeff
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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2022, 08:24:26 PM »

There may be more info in this document (different from the PLM doc): http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Developers_Guide_20070816a.pdf

There is a LOT more in there on Insteon, but the X10 section is the same - basically just transmit and receive.

The Harmony might use Insteon commands to establish communication.  There are messages to get version, reset, etc. that might be used by the Harmony to determine if the IM is connected.    Monitoring interaction with a Harmony is probably the only way to determine what is needed.

When HomeControlAssistant connects to a CM11A, it reports its firmware version as part of the status request message.  The XTB-232 supports the CM11A status request, and it is probably how HCA determines a CM11A (or XTB-232) is connected.

Jeff
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brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2022, 12:11:22 AM »

Earlier this evening I sent a message to Smartenit asking whether the P2 is just "out of stock" or discontinued.  I got a quick response:

"We might be getting a small batch within 4 weeks and then it will be gone for good.  The issue then becomes availability of the PLM. Either way, because the few PLMs out there are now so expensive, the P2 will be a lot more."

Maybe not so bad for those who have a PLM already.  I don't know if they're taking backorders but might be worth a call.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2022, 10:18:05 AM »

Earlier this evening I sent a message to Smartenit asking whether the P2 is just "out of stock" or discontinued.  I got a quick response:

"We might be getting a small batch within 4 weeks and then it will be gone for good.  The issue then becomes availability of the PLM. Either way, because the few PLMs out there are now so expensive, the P2 will be a lot more."

As you know, I'm working to address the PLM issue for X10 users.  But that reply indicates they are not going to produce their own PLM.

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2022, 04:04:40 PM »

Universal Devices had their own serial PLM designed maybe 10 years ago. With the needed programmed chips promised by Smartlabs. After getting to the prototype stage ready for for engineering stage. They abruptly changed their minds. Leaving them with the cost. I believe of 10 prototypes.
Now that they are gone and a creditor company for the remaining assets and intelligent property is controlling the way thing are going to happen. With a September 18 2022 cutoff date. I don't think anyone is going to be making any Insteon devices including the PLM any time soon.
I know UDI has expressed interest in maybe at least a run of PLM modules to help the ISY994i members.

Too bad we didn't have a crystal ball. Smartenit was clearing out excess bare, serial and USB PLM on Ebay awhile back.

When PogoPro the manufacturer of the P2 just dropped the server storage service and modules.

Ebay was full of surplus P2 devices. The vendors just forgot to tell you they where almost useless. Unless you found a way how to to reprogram them.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 05:42:34 PM by Brian H »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2022, 01:46:26 PM »

Update on XTB-232 to XTB-XM conversion:

It is essentially working with a terminal emulator, but there is one problem that occasionally causes a command to be lost.  Fixing it is not a simple task.

The XTB-232 emulates the CM11A protocol that negotiates transfer of data between the computer and CM11A.  A request to transfer data is issued by the source, and an acknowledge is sent by the receiver when it can accept the data.  That protocol works very well.

There is no negotiation with the IM.  It must accept a burst of data regardless of what else is going on.  The problem occurs when the computer sends an X10 command that overlaps the XM sending a received X10 command to the computer.  That could never happen with the CM11A protocol.

The PIC can certainly handle it, but I'll have modify the serial I/O routines so the I/O can be interleaved when this happens.  That may require going to interrupt driven I/O with its own can of worms.

I still have to complete expanding an incoming pre-set dim command to an extended command.

I'm beginning to wonder if the demand will be sufficient to make this worth the effort.

Jeff
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brobin

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Re: Insteon as we know it is gone
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2022, 11:39:23 PM »

If you could add Insteon support there might be some good money to be made.  The prices on ebay are crazy - look at this recent sale:

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