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Author Topic: XPCP Passive Coupler  (Read 925 times)

JeffVolp

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XPCP Passive Coupler
« on: August 06, 2023, 12:22:12 AM »

I discovered today that X10 is no longer offering the X10 XPCP tuned-circuit passive coupler.  But the coupler used in the XTB-IIR needs only 2 components, and provides even better performance than the XPCP.

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2023, 11:22:43 AM »

Thank you for the information.
Though not the best news for X10 users.
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JeffVolp

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2023, 03:10:37 PM »

Though not the best news for X10 users.

I offered that as an option for X10 users to make their own.  From Mouser:

Capacitor - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/75-F17734222000
Inductor - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AIAP028R2K

Both are axial lead, so are easy to connect to a 240V breaker with a single wire-nut connection between them.  Or they could be put in a small plastic case with two wires hanging out, and installed anywhere.

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2023, 05:45:29 AM »

Thank you for this great information.
It may help some with coupling issues.
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N-Tesla

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2023, 10:59:24 AM »

Though not the best news for X10 users.

I offered that as an option for X10 users to make their own.  From Mouser:

Capacitor - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/75-F17734222000
Inductor - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AIAP028R2K

Both are axial lead, so are easy to connect to a 240V breaker with a single wire-nut connection between them.  Or they could be put in a small plastic case with two wires hanging out, and installed anywhere.

Jeff


Thanks for this one, Jeff.

I've just assembled 3 of them for the 3 "main" panels I have at my place.
They help a lot.

Now I'm trying to find any signal suckers that are still causing issues on some branch circuits.

EG:


This was in a power supply for an older clone PC that was killing my X10 on one branch.

A .47f Safety Capacitor wired right across the hot and neutral at the line cord connector.

That translates to a 2.8Ω "Short" at 120Khz X10 frequencies.
No wonder it was killing my X10.
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Brian H

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2023, 06:03:11 PM »

Good to see you found one of your signal suckers.
Computer Power Supplies are one of the known. Frequently can cause issues we see.
UPS AC input circuits are another one we frequently see.
Along with thinks like some modern flat screen TV's.
If you where still using the supply. An X10 filter most times can help.
I have mine on a 10A FilterLinc filtered output and the 2413S PLM on the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front.
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JeffVolp

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2023, 10:25:17 PM »


A .47f Safety Capacitor wired right across the hot and neutral at the line cord connector.

That translates to a 2.8Ω "Short" at 120Khz X10 frequencies.
No wonder it was killing my X10.

Yes, that is often the case for computer power supplies.  Some equipment has capacitors from hot and neutral to the ground prong, which floats the case at 60VAC if the ground is left open.  That caused problems back at the lab because they often isolated the ground to avoid ground loops.  One fellow who had low skin resistance was always getting shocked.

Jeff
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N-Tesla

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2023, 08:34:01 AM »

Good to see you found one of your signal suckers.
Computer Power Supplies are one of the known. Frequently can cause issues we see.
UPS AC input circuits are another one we frequently see.
Along with thinks like some modern flat screen TV's.
If you where still using the supply. An X10 filter most times can help.
I have mine on a 10A FilterLinc filtered output and the 2413S PLM on the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front.


I have a number of XPPF modules in use. Two of them on HP Laptop power supplies that are sealed so I can't open to see if modifications can be made.
Ran into a few problems with the limited current of them.
Put one on an early small LG front load washing machine. (Washer is long gone now. Lasted a lot longer than the XPPF.)
And another on my son's Dell Alienware Full Tower computer. (I'd never seen a computer with a 1KW power supply before that one...)

Looking at the bigger picture of how many things are using PLC, that this could affect, I found an article predicting that the power line communication market could reach $22.7B by 2032, so PLC isn't going away any time soon.

So I don't personally see a reason to abandon my X10 setup if this is the case, as many seem to have done. What "sucks" X10 signals will surely suck the signals of other PLC equipment even if at a lower frequency.

Just remembered, a friend in Vermont was using a TED System in his home for energy monitoring. The whole thing went haywire when he installed LED tubes in his fluorescent lights.
At that time TED was selling a "relabelled" X10 XPF filter which worked well enough at 132Khz to fix his problem. (They're selling their own filter now, probably tuned for 132K)

https://www.globenewswire.com/en/news-release/2023/06/20/2690659/0/en/Power-Line-Communication-Market-Set-for-Strong-Growth-Projected-to-Reach-USD-22-7-Billion-by-2032.html
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N-Tesla

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2023, 08:43:10 AM »


A .47f Safety Capacitor wired right across the hot and neutral at the line cord connector.

That translates to a 2.8Ω "Short" at 120Khz X10 frequencies.
No wonder it was killing my X10.

Yes, that is often the case for computer power supplies.  Some equipment has capacitors from hot and neutral to the ground prong, which floats the case at 60VAC if the ground is left open.  That caused problems back at the lab because they often isolated the ground to avoid ground loops.  One fellow who had low skin resistance was always getting shocked.

Jeff


I've actually got a box full of those isolated ground outlets that I think came from a small medical clinic. They're orange, with a little triangle symbol on them to indicate the iso-ground.

Personally, I'm very sensitive to "leakage". I've noticed it in a lot of things in the home where I can feel like a "buzz" in my fingertips if I run them along the surface of (usually) things that are plugged in. Which I'm sure shouldn't happen if they are properly grounded.
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Brian H

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2023, 05:51:52 PM »

My old home is two wire and no ground conductor.
My older LED TV's had three capacitors.
Line to Neutral,Line to Ground Pin and Neutral to Ground Pin.
The current tried to go through the grounded shield on the Cable TV cable.
I had to add a real ground to the cable feed to stop surprises to cable workers.
My later ones are two wire and have a cap between Line and Neutral.
Best not and try to modify the computer supplies.
As the cap helps removing internal noise from the unit back to the power lines and is probably needed for FCC acceptance for the computer.
TED did cause X10 problems as it is constantly send in message on the line and clobbering X10.
I believe the answer was the filter you mentioned to isolate one branch in the home so it could be used with their receiver.
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N-Tesla

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2023, 12:41:58 PM »

My old home is two wire and no ground conductor.
My older LED TV's had three capacitors.
Line to Neutral,Line to Ground Pin and Neutral to Ground Pin.
The current tried to go through the grounded shield on the Cable TV cable.
I had to add a real ground to the cable feed to stop surprises to cable workers.
My later ones are two wire and have a cap between Line and Neutral.
Best not and try to modify the computer supplies.
As the cap helps removing internal noise from the unit back to the power lines and is probably needed for FCC acceptance for the computer.
TED did cause X10 problems as it is constantly send in message on the line and clobbering X10.
I believe the answer was the filter you mentioned to isolate one branch in the home so it could be used with their receiver.

When I was in High School a buddy and I had a business (legal partnership) repairing TV's and Radios.
If you know what a "Tube Caddy" is... it was that far back.

His parents home had a 2 wire, 15 amp service. No grounds. It was all knob and tube inside the walls.
Although the furnace, stove and dryer were all natural gas, the lack of a ground wasn't as big an issue as blowing the one and only fuse in the panel by plugging in too many pieces of test equipment, a soldering iron, etc.

The missing ground was a separate issue. We had to drill a hole in what supposedly passed for "cement" on the basement floor and drive a ground rod into it. Then ran separate ground wires to all the equipment on the benches.

The caps are - I think - what Jeff mentioned. Without an actual ground, the caps to the ground pin would float the chassis at 60v. Wouldn't be deadly as the impedance of the caps would limit the current but you'd still get a good 'buzz' off of touching them.
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Brian H

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Re: XPCP Passive Coupler
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2023, 04:03:57 PM »

Yes I am old enough.
That was when tubes where relatively inexpensive. Transistors where very costly and many semiconductors where just a dream.
There was a  tube tester in many local stores.
I still have my Color TV test equipment like a current adapter for tubes and a color bar generator.
In a way I was lucky. I got much experience with both tubes and semiconductors.
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