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Author Topic: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!  (Read 1418 times)

Esgelrothion

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Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« on: October 17, 2023, 02:16:25 AM »

Hello! I had the day off work today so I decided to finally install roller shades in my bedroom windows. I purchased a couple Add-A-Motors to automate the process. I tested it on one window first. The motor is plugged into an AM486 appliance module thatís plugged directly into the wall, and controlled via an SS13A wireless switch and TM751 Transceiver. The motor is designed to switch directions every time itís turned on, so that looks like: ON (UP) - OFF - ON (DOWN) - OFF etc. It works perfectly when I manually plug it in and unplug it. However, when I try to use the switch, it works strangely. When I press the on switch nothing happens. When I press the off switch I hear the internal relay click, then a few seconds later it clicks again and the shade moves. Every time I press the off switch it clicks, pauses, clicks again and then activates the shade. I get the same result programming it in the HomeMinder, installing it as either a lamp or appliance module - nothing happens when I turn it on, but two clicks and movement when I turn it off. Even when I send the off signal when the HomeMinder already thinks itís off it behaves the same way. Itís like it keeps turning itself back on every time I turn it off.

I had planned on programming it with a timer in the HomeMinder to turn on in the morning and then turn off 1 minute later once its motion has been completed. For what itís worth the appliance modules turns on and off normally when the motor isnít plugged into it, so there must be something strange happening in the interaction between the module and the motor. Iíve tried it with two different appliance modules with the same result, so I know itís not a faulty module. Iíve sent an email to Add-A-Motor to see if leaving the motor ďonĒ or powered (but not running, obviously) will be harmful to the motor, but Iím confused why the appliance module is behaving this way. Anyone have any ideas? Iím at a bit of a loss here.
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Brian H

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2023, 06:16:06 AM »

Local control sensor.
Module has a feature when off. Can be turned on by the loads power switch from on to off and back on. This will trigger the modules on with out an X10 command.
Some loads can also trigger the sensor circuit. Sounds like the motor is a load that does trigger the circuit.  As a test try a power splitter so you can connect the load and a small incandescent bulb together and see if that helps. There maybe better loads to add to the circuit as I know a real incandescent bulb is hard to find. The halogen equivalence ones may also work.

Depending on its age and hardware there are modifications you can do to remove the sensing. Open and remove some components.
If you have the date code it may help as I have definitely seen the modification for the earlier ones.

They also have a small sensor in them to see if its internal ratchet on off switch is on or off. So if an on is sent an on and it is already on the ratchet will not fire and turn it off. This sensor can not be disabled or the module will not know if it is on or off and blindly pulse the relay a few times to try and see if it is on or off. Some called it the machine gun effect.

https://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Local_Control_for_Lamp_And_Appliance_Modules

The modification in the link will not work with the later modules with the surface mounted controller and a 100% different circuitry. Also besides the jumper in the link. There is a diode you can remove and kill the current and not just ignore it with the jumper.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 07:04:35 AM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2023, 11:41:43 AM »

Did a few more tests.
Your description indicates it is an older one before the redesign and has Local Control Sensing.
The redesigned modules do not have Local Control Sensing. Sold as CFL friendly.
Only the small On Off sensing.That has to be there for proper operation.
The jumper in the wiki should stop it from going back on but will not remove the sensing voltage.
In that photo near the top left. Just below the Blue Capacitor is the diode.
There is another modification on other sources. That removed a diode.
I went full bore and removed the jumper,diode, a capacitor and resistor in one of mine as a test.
After I studied my corrected schematic. Shows just the diode and jumper would be needed. The capacitor and resistor are disconnected when the diode was removed.  ;D
X10 did not change the part numbers on the appliance and lamp modules.
So the only way to try and determine older or newer is the Date Code.

Side note:
You indicated you are using TM751 Transceivers.
They are not polite so if two send an on line message at the same time. It is possibly step on each others message.
Also RF control only on hard wired Unit Code 1. For sending and the internal relay.
The RR501 is polite and will try and not step on an ongoing message.
Can be set to Unit Code 1 or 9. Has a power line receiver in it.
So you can also use a controller to turn on and off its internal relay.
Along with an RF command.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 02:18:55 PM by Brian H »
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Esgelrothion

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2023, 02:21:32 PM »

Thank you so much for that extensive information! I really appreciate all the details! I hadnít known that Local Sensing was a thing - that seems to be whatís causing my issue. I donít know that Iím up for the modifications you mentioned, but if I understand you correctly using a new Appliance Module without local sensing would take care of the problem, correct? How new do they need to be? If Iím reading the date code correctly mine are from 2005. Also, Iíll look into the RR501 transceivers - that might help with some issues as well. Thanks again very much!!
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Brian H

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2023, 04:04:35 PM »

Mine are 09K48 week 48 of 2009.
I know the LM465 Lamp Modules where mid 2007.
The Appliance ones probably are the same general date code.
Beginning of this LM465 gives details on the Date Code.   
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
Another section on appliance modules and local control disabling.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Modules_Turn_On_Immediately_After_Being_Turned_Off
You may want to try the fixes in the wiki and see if it fixed the issue. Then you may have a better idea if later ones with no local control will work better.
The ones I tested. Did not have local control sensing. Just the small am I on or off sensing voltage.
Should be fine unless the load is very touchy to any stray voltage on its input.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 04:07:35 PM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2023, 04:29:55 PM »

I have a link to an old site with information on defeating it.
As you gathered. It is not too easy.
Not hard to find the parts.
Problem is taking them apart and if you hold the front side up. The code wheels and trim plates fall into the module.  ;D

During the tests. I found a dead one in the box unused but old 09K48 date code.

One way to see if your module has local control and not need electronic test equipment.
Use maybe a table lamp with a on off switch. Modern LED bulb maybe OK as incandescent and halogen equivalents are hard to find.
Turn the module off. Using an X10 command.
Then turn the lamps local switch off and then back on.
If the module turns back on. The module has the local control sensor in it.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 06:07:35 AM by Brian H »
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hillyerm

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Re: Help: Appliance Module Turns Itself Back On!
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2024, 11:58:22 AM »

I have also encountered the problem of appliance modules turning off and then immediately on again when given an off command.  Rather than using an incandescent bulb I found that plugging in an AC-DC power supply to a cube tap connected to the appliance module can prevent the problem from happening.  The AC-DC power supply does not need to be connected to anything.  The other outlet(s) of the cube tap are connected to the equipment to be controlled.

Not all AC-DC power supplies will work for this.  I have a collection of 8 from equipment now gone and found that 6 of them will prevent the off-on problem.  The date code for the AM486 appliance module I'm using is 7J43.
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