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[JMac]

Thanks, Dave, for this little tidbit.  As always there is a wealth of information on these posts.  That's why the forum should be required reading.

[nklght]

CFL's, LED's, or some different form of technology is the answer,

I do find the LED's used for traffic signal's better to see, than incandescent lights, I have also found that some versions of CFL's give better light than other versions.  I recently purchased a GE 6 pack of equivalent to 100 watt bulbs, and then some GE CFL's which gave off a whiter/bluer tent.  The 100 watt conventional cfl's worked best in larger areas, while the more expensive white/blue tint looked gave strange shadows until all the bulbs were switched.  The best advantage to using CFL's is that you can get more light from a signal fixture, the worst part is they are either on or off, and you have to purchase new modules to use them.  The LED lights sound interesting and I have seen some uses of it, but it is it dimmable, and how does it compare to incandescent and CFL. 

The Mercury concern with CFL's is about the amount of mercury released into the ground water when one is thrown away.  Their are two two types of fluorescent tubes, ones with mercury and the ones without mercury.  Industries have to properly dispose of the tubes containing mercury.  The problem is that CFL's contain mercury and are being thrown away with traditional garbage, and the mercury is infilltrating landfills.

It would be great if x-10 would manufacture their own bulbs, but instead we have to realize that x-10 was based on older technology, and it would be unlikely for them support newer energy saving technologies.

[steven r]

....The Mercury concern with CFL's is about the amount of mercury released into the ground water when one is thrown away.  Their are two two types of fluorescent tubes, ones with mercury and the ones without mercury.  Industries have to properly dispose of the tubes containing mercury.  The problem is that CFL's contain mercury and are being thrown away with traditional garbage, and the mercury is infiltrating landfills....

I too don't believe this environment time bomb has been addressed. All you hear is replace your bulbs with CFLs to save energy. Not enough preparation and education has been made as to how to dispose of the CFL.

[Brian H]

I believe some States now have regulations requiring households to also dispose of CFLs with mercury correctly. They also have proper recycling centers to do it.

[HA Dave]

I too don't believe this environment time bomb has been addressed. All you hear is replace your bulbs with CFLs to save energy. Not enough preparation and education has been made as to how to dispose of the CFL.

I believe some States now have regulations requiring households to also dispose of CFLs with mercury correctly. They also have proper recycling centers to do it.

It's a darn shame... we all just sort of... just pretend around the CFL issue.

Environmentalism has evolved into a religion. And whereas I respect the rights of others to practice they're believes. Laws that force me to conform to another religion... infringe on my rights.

I don't know when we 1st started using the phrase "save energy" when we actually mean . "use less energy" . . After all.... energy is a marketable consumer product.  If I decided to listen to less music on FM radio.... would I be SAVING MUSIC.... or SAVING RADIO? My brother works for the phone company.... if I give up my land-line... would I be "SAVING THE PHONE COMPANY?" If I visit my doctor less.... am I "SAVING HEALTHCARE"?

So.... IMHO (correct me if I am wrong) CFL's consume less energy.... even though they contribute considerably more toxic hazards to my environment.... those who worship the environment, and claim it to be God..... prefer I use them.

So what is the reason for the "force of law" that would require me to convert to CFL's? There isn't one! Government has no more right to force me to use CFL's than they do to force me to give up Kosher products.

So what does any of this have to do with X10? NOTHING... and that's my point. The religious zealots that follow the teachings of Al Gore may want to drag X10... and this forum... into the on-going dragged-out debate of word-misuse. But the facts remain! X10 works fine with CFL's!

[JeffVolp]

It's a darn shame... we all just sort of... just pretend around the CFL issue.

Environmentalism has evolved into a religion. And whereas I respect the rights of others to practice they're believes. Laws that force me to conform to another religion... infringe on my rights.

I don't know when we 1st started using the phrase "save energy" when we actually mean . "use less energy" . . After all.... energy is a marketable consumer product.  If I decided to listen to less music on FM radio.... would I be SAVING MUSIC.... or SAVING RADIO? My brother works for the phone company.... if I give up my land-line... would I be "SAVING THE PHONE COMPANY?" If I visit my doctor less.... am I "SAVING HEALTHCARE"?

So.... IMHO (correct me if I am wrong) CFL's consume less energy.... even though they contribute considerably more toxic hazards to my environment.... those who worship the environment, and claim it to be God..... prefer I use them.

So what is the reason for the "force of law" that would require me to convert to CFL's? There isn't one! Government has no more right to force me to use CFL's than they do to force me to give up Kosher products.

Sorry Dave, but I have to disagree with you on several points.  Unlike music, when electrical energy is consumed, it is gone in that usable form.  (Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it is changed from usable electrical energy to waste heat.)  Sometimes I wish some music could be destroyed, but that is another story...

Regarding mercury, the environmentalists have gotten behind that issue to the detriment of CFLs.  The old 4ft fluorescent tubes we have been using for decades also contain mercury.  However, only recently has there been the uproar about mercury in fluorescent bulbs.  These bulbs contain a minuscule amount of mercury.  I understand that mercury is also released into the environment as a result of burning fossil fuels.  Studies have shown there is a significant net savings of mercury released into the environment due to the "energy savings" over the lifetime of the CFL.

The government does have a right to tell us what to do when it benefits the country as a whole.  We follow laws in our daily lives whose sole purpose is to protect our general welfare.  Seatbelts, speed limits, stoplights are some examples.  We are burning through fossil fuels at a horrendous rate.  Eventually, they will run out.  Whether or not burning fossil fuels contribute to global warming is secondary to the fact that the end of cheap energy is approaching.  It is to our national benefit to make it last as long as possible so our children may still be able to afford transportation.  I know there are people with money falling out of their pockets that don't give a damn.  It is THEIR lifestyle that is important.  They can afford it.  Who cares about anyone else?

Well, I'm part of the group that does care.  Most of our lighting is CFL now (totally compatible with X10).  We try to reduce our energy consumption wherever practical.  Cost is the primary factor, but I also believe in the general benefit to the country as a whole.  The energy we don't waste today will be available for our children and grandchildren.

Jeff

[HA Dave]

The government does have a right to tell us what to do when it benefits the country as a whole.  We follow laws in our daily lives whose sole purpose is to protect our general welfare. 

Sorry Jeff..... I forget we're NOT all American here at this forum. Force of law is a American legal term. In America only PEOPLE have rights.

 ..... We are burning through fossil fuels at a horrendous rate.  Eventually, they will run out. 

Fossil fuel? Where did that term come from..... the early 1800's I think. Not a term used by anyone I know..... not for some time. All iron rocky planets generate gravity... and hence heat. Heat + pressure + iron = methane.... A known fact for some time. The complete chemistry of how the extra carbon turns the gas to oil and coal (or where it comes from) is not completely known yet.

The only thing that is known with any degree of certainty is Gas and oil was produced by planet earth today.... and will be again tomorrow.. as it has been since the beginning. As it has been everywhere that rocky planets have been detected. Even places like our moon and Mars (not to mention Titian).... fossils and fuels have nothing to do with each other.

Well, I'm part of the group that does care.  Most of our lighting is CFL now (totally compatible with X10).  We try to reduce our energy consumption wherever practical.  Cost is the primary factor, but I also believe in the general benefit to the country as a whole.  The energy we don't waste today will be available for our children and grandchildren.

We agree completely on the X10 compatible part!

I just think the religion connected to CFL's doesn't belong on the forum...... and I don't understand why it keeps reappearing here.

Jeff... please understand... I completely respect your belief system. I have no desire to drag your grandkids into my church and tell them about souls. For many my belief in a higher power is just plain foolish... and I understand that. For many... the belief is; that control of the masses must be obtained by other means. Other meaning: not by traditional religion. I am ok with that too.... but don't expect to see me bend a knee to this "new age religion".... maybe I am just too old to be rational.

[Jimmer]

I'm glad to hear that x10 works with cfl.  They are becoming very cheap and many people are using them.  I personally have switched all of my lights and will take them to the correct place for disposal as I do for batteries.

[JeffVolp]

Fossil fuel? Where did that term come from..... the early 1800's I think. Not a term used by anyone I know..... not for some time. All iron rocky planets generate gravity... and hence heat. Heat + pressure + iron = methane.... A known fact for some time. The complete chemistry of how the extra carbon turns the gas to oil and coal (or where it comes from) is not completely known yet.

The only thing that is known with any degree of certainty is Gas and oil was produced by planet earth today.... and will be again tomorrow.. as it has been since the beginning. As it has been everywhere that rocky planets have been detected. Even places like our moon and Mars (not to mention Titian).... fossils and fuels have nothing to do with each other.

Dave, I think you have a few mistakes above.  All planets generate gravity, even the gas giants that do not have a rocky core.  Gravity does not in itself generate heat.  In the earth's core the slow decay of radioactive materials is the source of the heat, not the pressue from gravity.  I do agree that an increase in pressure can generate heat in a compressable medium - that's how most refrigeration units work - but steady state pressure does not.

If you have a problem with the term "fossil fuel", perhaps you should read Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel

Yes, oil, gas, and coal was produced by the earth.  It is generally accepted that the source of the carbon in coal and oil was plantlife that existed millions of years ago.  (There is an alternate theory that gases were produced by non-organic processes.)  Yes, the earth will continue to produce hydrocarbon fuels, but at a tiny rate compared with the rate they are being consumed.

Jeff

[HA Dave]

Dave, I think you have a few mistakes. 

No.... just follow your own links Jeff. The science we were taught back when... was wrong. How many elements did they say we had back when you learned science?

It has long been believed that OPEC has adjusted oil production to match what they believe to be the IN-exhaustable amount they have. A far cry from TINY rate.

[steven r]

...But the facts remain! X10 works fine with CFL's!

Well yes and no. While CFLs can work with X10 if you use strategically use filters, I have yet to see one that I can send a dim to 5% and have it go down to virtually no light (most dimmables I've seen will only dim to about 20%). I also wouldn't trust most if not all with soft start modules and wall switches.

[JeffVolp]

No.... just follow your own links Jeff. The science we were taught back when... was wrong. How many elements did they say we had back when you learned science?

It has long been believed that OPEC has adjusted oil production to match what they believe to be the IN-exhaustable amount they have. A far cry from TINY rate.

You left out the word "theory".  It is generally accepted that hydrocarbons are the result of decaying plant matter.  The fact that coal and oil shale appear in sedimentary layers pretty much confirms that fact with regard to those two hydrocarbons.  I understand the theories regarding oil, but from that same entry, it says "the vast majority of Western petroleum geologists consider the biogenic theory of petroleum formation scientifically proven."  Just like we have been depleting our own reserves, eventually the OPEC oil fields will be depleted.  Of course by then they will own most of this and other countries that are the major oil importers.

A number of new radioactive "elements" have been created in the laboratory.  Some have very short halflives.  Over time they will all decay to the basic elements we learned about in school.  A major scientific issue that did change since my highschool days was plate tectonics.

Clearly you have your own opinions.  I hope you can at least agree that converting to CFLs will reduce the rate at which fossil fuel (primarily coal) is being consumed to produce electricity.  It will "save" energy, just like putting money in the bank to take out later when you need it.

Jeff

[HA Dave]

You left out the word "theory". .................  I understand the theories regarding oil, but from that same entry,............theory of petroleum formation scientifically proven."...................A number of new radioactive "elements" have been created in the laboratory.  Some have very short halflives.  Over time they will all decay to the basic elements we learned about in school.  A major scientific issue that did change since my highschool days was plate tectonics.

Clearly you have your own opinions. 

No Jeff.... you mis-understand completely! I believe in a traditional higher power... what many call God. It is fine with me if you or any number of others prefer to believe the new religion of environmentalism. I won't quote you scriptures..... and you can keep your "theories regarding oil" to yourself. I don't think this forum is a proper place for you to preach your sermons for the belief...... of whatever it is you believe in.

Many years ago... when I was a young man. While stationed in Germany I had a beer with a former SS Agent. As he drank he told stories about his military career.... until he broke down in tears. Environmentalist aren't the first to attempt to destroy religions with "popular So-called-science". I remember those who lost their lives because no one spoke up... and I SPEAK UP FOR THEM.  I refuse to live in fear.... and I am NOT alone.

I will not bend a knee to the strange ideas of any man or government. I respect your rights to worship as you choose. But I am not a convert for you Jeff.

[Charles Sullivan]

Adding my two cents to this (non X10) topic:  I'm very unimpressed thusfar with this new "green" lighting.

I recently replaced 1800 Watts of incandescent overhead lighting with CFLs.  They're so dim when they first come on that I often just leave them on instead of turning on and off when needed.

And then there are the regular fluorescent tube lamps with the green colored end caps.   Half the time they won't come on at all.

(The above lighting is all controlled with regular toggle switches - there's no X10 involved.)

[HA Dave]

A thank-you to steven r for sharing this video link with me. IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT ENERGY SAVER LIGHT BULBS!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg   Pay close attention so you can get your required clean-up kit together!

Adding my two cents to this (non X10) topic:  I'm very unimpressed thusfar with this new "green" lighting.................

Don't worry about the quality, or less power usage, or even the safety (not even mentioning that many of these bulbs are KNOWN fire hazards) The main thing is that you show NO Resistance to a government that has NO CONSTITUTIONAL POWER to take this control over you and your household. Be prepared to change religions.