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Author Topic: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module  (Read 212 times)

alexcomp

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Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« on: November 05, 2017, 10:36:27 AM »

 B:(

In my suspended ceiling I have a standard duplex outlet.. In one outlet I have plugged in a lamp module, number 465 and it will work reliably with either of my two transceivers as long as there is nothing in the other outlet. On and off with no problems. Incidentally I am controlling two ceiling mounted LED fixtures..

Into the other outlet I plug my ceiling mounted Acer projector and as soon as I do that,  my lamp module completely ignores all commands. The interesting thing is that it does not matter whether the projector is on or off. I guess this would probably indicate that there is some residual activity going on with the projector even when not projecting.

Previously I posted essentially the same problem when I was running the ceiling LED fixtures through a controlled appliance module. I could turn the lights off but they would hesitate for about 5 to 10 seconds and turn on again.It was suggested in that thread, (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29946.0), that the problem most likely was local sensing and this seems likely to be the case.

As a techie sort of a guy, I was all over  using X 10 a number of years ago but to be frank, these kinds of issues backed me off as there were just too many anomalies.

I suppose a potential answer is to bring separate electricity to the Acer projector but this will be a pain in the butt as it will involve running an extension cord over my utility room wall and out through the suspended ceiling. I also saw that it is possible to defeat the local sensor by opening the appliance module and snipping a wire. Is this also the case with my lamp module is that reacting to these local issues?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 10:39:15 AM by alexcomp »
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HA Dave

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 12:47:10 PM »

.....I have a standard duplex outlet.. In one outlet I have plugged in a lamp module, ..and it will work reliably... as long as there is nothing in the other outlet. On and off with no problems....

Into the other outlet I plug my ceiling mounted Acer projector and as soon as I do that,  my lamp module completely ignores all commands.

Any device that uses a remote control to turn On/Off.... will always be drawing a small amount of power. I have a [tower] fan that uses an IR remote... and it kills the PLC signal when plugged in. I resolved the problem with a filter. Since the fan doesn't need or utilize a PLC filtering it's connection to the outlet didn't effect the fans use... and allowed the other device (lights) to operate fine.

No flavor of HA tech.... or anything else... is perfect. Keeping power lines clean is important to X10 applications.
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Modern automation is much more than turning things on and off.
The use of Home Automation is limited... only by our imaginations.

Brian H

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »

The projector is a power line noise maker or power line signal sucker.

It probably has a noise filter on it to keep its internal electronic noise off the power lines. It will absorb X10 power line commands as noise. It is probably on the AC input that is always On. So it is in standby and a remote can turn it On and Off. 

It will have to be on an X10 filter to stop it from killing the power line commands to the LM465 and SR227.
The X10 XPPF is only 5 amps and if pushed close to 5 amps it can over heat. So I would stay away from it if possible.

The Smarthome 10 amp FilterLinc would work. Has one filtered outlet on the bottom and a unfiltered pass through outlet on the front. Is kind of large.

Jeff at JV Digital Engineering also has a 10 and 15 amp X10 filter
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/specialty-devices/filters/xppf-plug-in-filter.html
https://www.smarthome.com/filterlinc-10-amp-plug-in-noise-filter.html
http://jvde.us/xtb-f10.htm

Jeff has a great set of X10 troubleshooting tutorials.
If you have not seen them yet.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
If you don't have a phase coupler between the two incoming power lines. There is one on phase coupling.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 02:27:36 PM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 02:17:42 PM »

LM465. Yes in the before Soft Start there is a Diode you can cut for Local Control Sensing
I may have to go back over my notes. I believe there is a resistor in the Soft Start you can remove.
If the Lamp Module was turning back On. Then it maybe the Local Control Sensing.

It is a power line issue if the commands are not reaching the SR227 or LM465.

You may have to find the noise makers and signal suckers in you home.
If you don't have a good phase coupler between the incoming power lines. The commands from one phase may not get to the other phase reliably or at all.
I have the gold standard XTB-IIR myself.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 02:19:54 PM by Brian H »
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alexcomp

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 09:36:20 PM »

Quote
LM465. Yes in the before Soft Start there is a Diode you can cut for Local Control Sensing
I may have to go back over my notes. I believe there is a resistor in the Soft Start you can remove.
If the Lamp Module was turning back On. Then it maybe the Local Control Sensing.

It is a power line issue if the commands are not reaching the SR227 or LM465."

In the case of the SR227, turn off then lights turn back on.  In the case of the LM465, no signals are recognized. There is an instruction here (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Local_Control_for_Lamp_And_Appliance_Modules) that shows how to disable local sensing on the appliance module.  I might open my controlled module and see if the inside looks like the picture referenced.

But then again, perhaps the path of least resistance would be running separate electricity...
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Brian H

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 06:06:44 AM »

The jumper in the older Appliance Module will stop it from going back On. If your load was also pulsing from the sensing current. There was also a diode you could cut.

The latest appliance modules do not have a jumper or diode to cut. They appear to have no Local Control Sensing.

The Soft Start CFL Friendly LM465s. Still have Local Control. I remember disconnecting a resistor to stop it.

Running a new line may work. Just remember what circuit is now on. Will have the noise and signal sucker on it.
So it could possible still cause issues.
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alexcomp

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 09:53:25 AM »

Quote
The jumper in the older Appliance Module will stop it from going back On. If your load was also pulsing from the sensing current. There was also a diode you could cut.

The latest appliance modules do not have a jumper or diode to cut. They appear to have no Local Control Sensing.

The Soft Start CFL Friendly LM465s. Still have Local Control. I remember disconnecting a resistor to stop it.

Running a new line may work. Just remember what circuit is now on. Will have the noise and signal sucker on it.
So it could possible still cause issues.

Attached pictures show the guts of my SR227 and LM465. Would prefer to do the LM465 as I have several and could lose one if it didn't work. Probably messed up as I didn't record the setting and position of the dials when I disassembled and it looks like there's no way to be sure when they go back together (good news - I sort of remembered I had it set to C5 and put it that way - the cautionary tale is if you disassemble this remember how it's set!!!), or is there? Took several pictures of the 465 as must shoot from the side due to parts obscured.  Can anyone point to which diode to disable?

If it seems more likely to disable local control on the SR227 perhaps someone could point that out.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 10:07:05 AM by alexcomp »
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Brian H

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 11:19:09 AM »

The LM465 is a dimmer. It should not be used to drive a load not made to be on a dimmer. Even at100% On the output is not a unmodified AC wave. 

The SR227 is a On Off relay and can properly drive loads not made for use with dimmers. So a load on a SR227 may not be OK with an LM465. The projector should not be on a LM465. I can't say about the kitchen overhead. It maybe OK if designed for a dimmer.

The dials should not be a problem. The outer rings of the dials have a key on it and the case has a key way it fits into.
The inner dial just inserts in the outer ring and can be rotated to the setting after putting back together.
Black ring is Unit Code dial. Red ring is House Code dial.

Tom's X10-Modifacations tab on this web site.
http://www.laureanno.com/index.html
The older before Soft Start LM465 is one of them featured.
Your photo is showing a DIP controller so it is the older before Soft Start model. Mods should be OK.
If your are Soft Start where they ramp On and Of in a few seconds. Those modifications will not apply.

The older Appliance Module modifications are also shown.
I have not seen any for the latest appliance module. Though I believe it has no Local Control sensing now.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 11:36:30 AM by Brian H »
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dave w

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 05:23:33 PM »

Into the other outlet I plug my ceiling mounted Acer projector and as soon as I do that,  my lamp module completely ignores all commands. The interesting thing is that it does not matter whether the projector is on or off. I guess this would probably indicate that there is some residual activity going on with the projector even when not projecting.

Previously I posted essentially the same problem when I was running the ceiling LED fixtures through a controlled appliance module. I could turn the lights off but they would hesitate for about 5 to 10 seconds and turn on again.It was suggested in that thread, (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29946.0), that the problem most likely was local sensing and this seems likely to be the case.

I think Brian discussed this, but if you put your projector on a filter, the LM465 will work. Your LED fixture bulbs must be dimmable.  The projector is a noise maker and the noise prevents the X10 signal from getting to the LM465.    https://www.amazon.com/Smarthome-1626-10-FilterLinc-10-Amp-Filter/dp/B003ICY1S4

Yes the Appliance Module turning back on is likely a local sense issue. Plug a 4 or 7 watt incandescent night light into the Appliance Module along with the LED fixture. If the module no longer trips back on, then it is a local sense issue. Brian had a link for disabling local sense in an Appliance Module, I don't know of a link for disabling local sense in a SR277. If you can solder, I see a jumper off pin three of the chip, you might try snipping it as a test.  if it does not disable local sense, solder the jumper back together.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 05:32:35 PM by dave w »
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Brian H

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Re: Acer projector can't coexist with SR227 or LM465 lamp module
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 06:30:28 PM »

Backwards Engineering posted a schematic on the SR227 here.
Thread was started in 2006 but an updated SR227 schematic was added.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=9437.0
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