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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 01:35:03 AM

Title: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 01:35:03 AM: I come again seeking words of wisdom from the forum.
I have had the X10 up and running for a few days to find I lack control in some of the house. After searching the forums here I am certain I will need a phase coupler. I am not too whoopee about popping open my breaker panel to install one there but would like to get the type that is in line with my dryer.
I have a manufactured home 2006 model built by Norris homes. I have to install the pahse coupler in the external box because my internal breaker box is full.
I also noted as spoken here in the forums that the labeling of the breaker box is way off when I was mapping circuits for the X10 system. You would figure that it being a factory build they would be able to get that right. I love the home but would like to strangle the dealer but that is for a difftent forum.
So here are the questions.

Would the dryer type of passive phase coupler work for this application?
Do I need a repeater in this size of home 2000 sq foot?
Does X10 work well in manufactured housing?

What will become of Captain Coupling? “Uncle Phill” didn’t ever answer that burning question in his articles. ;D
Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: KDR on November 02, 2006, 05:15:33 AM: medvampire,
What are your troubled area's? I would not be surprised if you say bedrooms since the house was built in 2006. Did you try the "Turn Dryer On" trick to see if the troubled area's improved? Maybe toss in some detail about what area's that are problem and where the computer that runs AHP and the CM15A are located.

I had a dryer type repeater/coupler that would mess up AHP and macros due to the delay and repeated signal. I did go out and install a passive coupler in the dryer plug and it worked great. I have around 1700 sq ft home built in 1921.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 06:29:50 AM: Thanks for the reply
You are right about the bed rooms.
I was going to try a passive first.
They say a pic is worth a 1000 words.
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2807/housebboxhf3.th.jpg) (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=housebboxhf3.jpg)
I tried the dryer trick and no joy.
As soon as I get home from work this morning I am going to move the CM15A around with a test lamp module to see what happens.
Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Brian H on November 02, 2006, 06:56:13 AM: I understand many new homes have what is called an Arc Breaker type outlet. Many in bedrooms, Some are known X10 problem makers.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Oldtimer on November 02, 2006, 08:26:01 AM: Quote from: Brian H on November 02, 2006, 06:56:13 AM
I understand many new homes have what is called an Arc Breaker type outlet. Many in bedrooms, Some are known X10 problem makers.

If you're like me and weren't aware of these check here:

Ask The Builder: New Arc Fault Breakers (http://www.askthebuilder.com/320_New_Arc_Fault_Breakers_-_Small_Price_To_Pay_For_Peace_Of_Mind.shtml)

[TTA Edit: Added description to LINK.]
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 09:03:05 AM: Just got home and looked at the breaker box and I do have arc fault breakers except the whirl pool.
I also took the CM15A and moved to one of the bedrooms and tested with lamp module and wolla I have control in the other bed rooms and bath rooms. I will be ordering a phase coupler soon. Per advice from you good folks I will get a passive coupler.
For those following my question in the other thread ... The boys were happy about me not having control in their room but they will be sadly disappointed now. :'(
Thanks again
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Dan Lawrence on November 02, 2006, 11:57:28 AM: Pigs Electronics in Baltimore, MD (www.pigselectronics.com) sells a 0.1 uF 250 VAC Capacitor for $0.99. If you have an electric stove., you can attach it between the main wires in the box the stove is plugged into. it will bridge the phases and not detract from the stove's perfomance at all. If you have a local electronics store, get one there. If that's not what you want, get either the XPCP Passive Coupler or the XPCR Coupler/Repeater which are made specifically to solve this problem.

Good Luck!! When all your X10 modules can be addresses, timers and macros work the way they are supposed to.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Brian H on November 02, 2006, 04:32:15 PM: Just remember that a passive coupler only passes the signal at the level it is at the coupler. So if the CM15A sends 5 VPP and it is 1VPP at the coupler. Only 1 VPP gets to go back the other phase. Also you still may have a signal sucker or noise generator. So selective unplugging things may show more information. If the phase coupler doesn't do the whole thing.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: KDR on November 02, 2006, 07:07:00 PM: Most ARC breakers have problems with X10... some brands of breakers are worse then others. On Jan 1 2002 National Electrical Code says all residential bedrooms had to have ARC Fault breakers. Some states have already revised that stating that all rooms in residential has to have them.

Coupling sounds like its going to help you but in the long run you may need to get something to boost the signal to a higher voltage. I wonder if X10 is going to do anything to make there products better as more and more ARC breakers populate the market. At some point I will consider installing a new main with all ARC breakers.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 02, 2006, 08:47:02 PM: Quote from: Dan Lawrence on November 02, 2006, 11:57:28 AM
Pigs Electronics in Baltimore, MD (www.pigselectronics.com) sells a 0.1 uF 250 VAC Capacitor for $0.99. If you have an electric stove., you can attach it between the main wires in the box the stove is plugged into. it will bridge the phases and not detract from the stove's perfomance at all. If you have a local electronics store, get one there...

Quote from: vhoang on October 18, 2006, 06:50:42 PM

Stay away from the capactor thingy unless you want to risk voiding you home insurance policy or you know what you are doing. Whenever you do your own wiring ask yourself first can I do it well enough so an electrical inspector can say it's safe? Finding a burnt capactor next to a electrical fire is not good.

Quote from: ve3bwp on October 13, 2006, 11:26:29 PM

...I have some good working knowledge and have had experiance building filters so I am comfortable with the "how"...but since this is all on the mains I need to stay with CSA and ESA approved stuff to not risk a home owners insurance issue...
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: vhoang on November 02, 2006, 09:42:51 PM: --------
Starting Aug. 1, when the 2004 California Electrical Codes automatically take effect, residents will have to apply for a city building permits to replace or add wall, porch and ceiling lamps, light switches, electric receptacles, and other common do-it-yourself chores.

So changing that noisy electrical switch with a quieter mercury switch will cost a lot more. Besides the costs of the new switch, there’ll be the $81 basic permit fee plus an additional surcharge of $2.15 for each receptacle, outlet or switch and—if you want to add more—$21.50 for altering or changing wiring.

Under the current city code, such small changes can be made without permits and inspections; starting Aug. 1, not so.

The exemptions are currently allowed under Chapter 19.30.080 of the city electrical code. City Building Officer Joan McQuarrie said there’s a question about whether or not the exemptions could be incorporated into the new code.

“We’re looking into that,” said Deputy City Attorney Zach Cowan. “Generally cities are allowed to adopt more restrictive findings based on local conditions, but not less restrictive. But it never hurts to ask.”

-------

:o - Light switch replacement is listed there.... Most cities will allow changing things that already exist, and already inside an enclosure. You have more flexibility when it's in your own house to I beleive. But it doesn't hurt to call your
local city official to see if you have concerns about it. They may just tell you "What are you talking about." "Of course you can change your own light switch" or they may add a disclamer.

That's california for you.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 10:30:03 PM: I didn't plan to use a cap in the fuse box. I know the ideal may work but I like my home just the way it is with insurance. I just wont take the risk with my family. I live in rural Tennessee and have very little to worry about in the way way of building permits or code. The county here looks at like this" If you put shingles on you must have a permit" ::). Part of the reason I bought a manufactured home is due to the building codes here. HUD codes are much more stringent than local building codes. I am going to order a dryer type passive coupler and give it a try.
Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: dave w on November 03, 2006, 12:18:27 PM: Quote from: vhoang on November 02, 2006, 09:42:51 PM
--------
Starting Aug. 1, when the 2004 California Electrical Codes automatically take effect, residents will have to apply for a city building permits to replace or add wall, porch and ceiling lamps, light switches, electric receptacles, and other common do-it-yourself chores.

So changing that noisy electrical switch with a quieter mercury switch will cost a lot more. Besides the costs of the new switch, there’ll be the $81 basic permit fee plus an additional surcharge of $2.15 for each receptacle, outlet or switch and—if you want to add more—$21.50 for altering or changing wiring.

That's california for you.

Wow....+$82 to change a busted outlet. How do they detect and enforce....monitor wall switch sales at Home Depot? Makes me wanna pack bags and move to the left coast! Their next move will be a permit required to change toilet paper roll.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: steven r on November 03, 2006, 01:13:04 PM: Quote from: vhoang on November 02, 2006, 09:42:51 PM
Starting Aug. 1, when the 2004 California Electrical Codes automatically take effect, residents will have to apply for a city building permits to replace or add wall, porch and ceiling lamps, light switches, electric receptacles, and other common do-it-yourself chores.

So changing that noisy electrical switch with a quieter mercury switch will cost a lot more. Besides the costs of the new switch, there’ll be the $81 basic permit fee plus an additional surcharge of $2.15 for each receptacle, outlet or switch and—if you want to add more—$21.50 for altering or changing wiring....
Sounds like some politicians got some big donations from the electrical unions lobbies.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Puck on November 03, 2006, 11:35:16 PM: Quote from: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 06:29:50 AM
I tried the dryer trick and no joy.

medvampire: Seeing that you have tried this and it didn't work, plus from reading posts about the Arc Breakers not being X-10 friendly. The phase coupler alone may not solve your problem with controlling modules in your bedrooms. It's definately good to have and it should help with the other areas you are having problems with, but for the bedrooms, you may have to use individual Transceivers on the circuits that have Arc Breakers just to bypass them.

Just a thought after reading through this thread... but here's hoping the coupler does solve all your problem areas. :)
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on November 04, 2006, 06:49:41 AM: I moved my CM15A to what appeared but my wiring diagrams to be the other phase and had good control in the areas witch I couldn't reach before. I was able to get across the breakers in this test but who knows. I ordered dryer plug in type phase coupler and I hope it will be here next week. I will post if it works or not after the testing. I tried the dryer trick but I wonder if the stove may work better. The only problem with the stove and dryer is that they are the new electronic control types. I wonder if the digital controles on these appliances my interfere with the dryer phase test. If this coupler doesn't work I may get a hard wire phase and repeater module. I really need to buy a signal tester but I have think of a way to slip it by the wife. The WAF is high right now but you know how it slips the more $$$ you spend. ::)
Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: steven r on November 04, 2006, 09:28:47 AM: Quote from: medvampire on November 04, 2006, 06:49:41 AM
...I really need to buy a signal tester...
I went for a long time without one but am glad I have one now. There is a company that will lend you one for free. (I think you just cover postage.) Has someone posted the link yet in this topic? The thing is that you'll decide to keep it once you start using it.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Puck on November 04, 2006, 10:52:02 AM: Quote from: steven r on November 04, 2006, 09:28:47 AM
[Has someone posted the link yet in this topic? The thing is that you'll decide to keep it once you start using it.

Not a dedicated topic, but Duck69 does mention it here:

Borrow a Signal Meter (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10187.msg58739#msg58739)
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: 3_jeeps on December 07, 2006, 10:46:01 PM: Quote from: Dan Lawrence on November 02, 2006, 11:57:28 AM
Pigs Electronics in Baltimore, MD (www.pigselectronics.com) sells a 0.1 uF 250 VAC Capacitor for $0.99. If you have an electric stove., you can attach it between the main wires in the box the stove is plugged into. it will bridge the phases and not detract from the stove's perfomance at all. If you have a local electronics store, get one there. If that's not what you want, get either the XPCP Passive Coupler or the XPCR Coupler/Repeater which are made specifically to solve this problem.

Good Luck!! When all your X10 modules can be addresses, timers and macros work the way they are supposed to.

First of all, capacitor ratings are specified in VDC or WVDC (Working Volts DC), not AC. Secondly,
FWIW, a 250 VDC rating is too small a value in my view. I would go with a 600 VDC. I believe the x10 guidelines also state 600 WVDC.
John
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on December 07, 2006, 11:14:12 PM: I installed a dryer type coupler and have great results. I did not feel confortable putting a cap in my fuse box no matter the voltage. I have control in in all rooms now but still have a few noise problems. I am gonna order some noise filters when I begin to work in the rooms with problems. I am gonna order a test unit when funds become available.
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: KDR on December 08, 2006, 05:07:35 AM: Glad to here the coupler worked out and your projects are moving right along medvampire. When it comes time to get your filters I have seen them in 5, 10 and 15 amp models. The 15amp I have on my UPS units also has a small replaceable fuse built into it.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: medvampire on December 11, 2006, 10:36:35 PM: I have looked around and will pick up a few noise filters next month. I am in the process of doing the dimming mod to all the WS467 wall modules I have. I am having a lot of fun with the X10 stuff. ;D I have found that a little patience and study can solve most problems. I guess I am lucky not to have the problems that seem to plague some here.
Steve
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: vhoang on December 12, 2006, 11:20:25 PM: Just pick up a single outlet surge protector with a RFI rejection/filter at about 40db 100kHz to 20MHz at your neighborhood grocery or appliance store for $3-9 and save a bundle. I just make sure I have all my electronics (TV, UPS, Radios, everything) plugged into a power strip surge protector with these ratings and they work very well for me and no more noise problems. The higher the db rejection the better.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: marineau on December 15, 2006, 08:48:15 PM: Quote from: medvampire on November 02, 2006, 01:35:03 AM
I have a manufactured home 2006 model built by Norris homes. I have to install the pahse coupler in the external box because my internal breaker box is full.

My Breaker Box is full, but I resolved this problem like this:

I moved all the circuit breakers which required to receive X10 signals on the same phase
So, Washing Machine, MicroWave, Heating system, Soulder Machine, Saw, Compressor, Exterior outlet, Frezzing and many other can't receive X10 signal, but all other can ... No needing to use Phase Coupler !

Note that you can use a 120Volt Double Breaker (available to 15A + 15A only) for increase your Breaker Box capacity !
My Breaker Box is made by SquareD ! Maybe that your brand manufacturing manufacture these Double Breaker 120V 15A.

Note that I have 3 Breakers like this, and install them on a Phase side that X10 is necessary !
So These 3 Double Breakers gave me 6 breakers 15A !

So you could remove 2 singles 120V 15A, and install 1 Double Breaker and 1 slot would be ready for receive another breaker 120V
or
you could remove 4 singles 120V 15A, and install 2 Doubles Breakers and 2 slot would be ready for receive another breaker 240V

Like this photo, note that a
Breaker 38-40 and 26-28 are 240 Volts (20A and 40A)
Breaker 36 and 32 are a single Breaker 120 Volts 15A
Breaker 34 and 30 are a double Breaker 120 Volts 15A
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Puck on December 15, 2006, 09:36:21 PM: Quote from: marineau on December 15, 2006, 08:48:15 PM
I moved all the circuit breakers which required to receive X10 signals on the same phase

Just make sure your circuits on any one phase do not exceed the input phase's capacity. The concept of the idea is good... just make sure you do the math first. ;)
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: TakeTheActive on December 15, 2006, 10:33:27 PM: Quote from: Puck on December 15, 2006, 09:36:21 PM

Just make sure your circuits on any one phase do not exceed the input phase's capacity. The concept of the idea is good... just make sure you do the math first. ;)

Aiming for ZERO CURRENT FLOW on the Neutral from the pole? :-X
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Puck on December 15, 2006, 10:45:31 PM: Quote from: TakeTheActive on December 15, 2006, 10:33:27 PM
Quote from: Puck on December 15, 2006, 09:36:21 PM

Just make sure your circuits on any one phase do not exceed the input phase's capacity. The concept of the idea is good... just make sure you do the math first. ;)

Aiming for ZERO CURRENT FLOW on the Neutral from the pole? :-X

Oh if that were true ::) :D

Just making sure people don't move to much and exceed the (I believe) 100A/phase residential service. ;)

Hmmm... what if you put all inductive loads on one phase and all capacitive loads on the other... ::) ;D
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: marineau on December 15, 2006, 10:54:23 PM: Quote from: Puck on December 15, 2006, 09:36:21 PM
Quote from: marineau on December 15, 2006, 08:48:15 PM
I moved all the circuit breakers which required to receive X10 signals on the same phase

Just make sure your circuits on any one phase do not exceed the input phase's capacity. The concept of the idea is good... just make sure you do the math first. ;)

Sure, thank you to inform me.
I have just carried out calculation by omitting those on the 240V since they automatically set out again on the two phases 50/50 Phase1/phase2.
Now All others breaker that I have are 15A
I have 10 Breakers 15A on a phase1, and 11 Breakers 15A on a phase2.

I could turn ON all Light in my house with many appliances in same time, and, with ampere meter, verifiy a load on phase1 and phase2 and compare them !
Do you believe that it is necessary ?
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: marineau on December 15, 2006, 11:07:21 PM: Quote from: Puck on December 15, 2006, 10:45:31 PM

Just making sure people don't move to much and exceed the (I believe) 100A/phase residential service. ;)

Hmmm... what if you put all inductive loads on one phase and all capacitive loads on the other... ::) ;D

My Main Breaker is 200A, and a Total Breaker if I add all breaker give me this:
315A (120V)
355A (240V)
Total is 315/2 + 355 = 512.5

Is my method of calculation it good ?
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: Puck on December 15, 2006, 11:30:14 PM: Quote from: marineau on December 15, 2006, 11:07:21 PM
My Main Breaker is 200A, and a Total Breaker if I add all breaker give me this:
315A (120V)
355A (240V)
Total is 315/2 + 355 = 512.5

Is my method of calculation it good ?

marineau: from what you did, it appears you already mapped out your house wiring. When I mapped out mine, what I found was some breakers did not have much on them and nothing else could be added (i.e. no plugs). For example, on one 15Amp breaker I just have my Range Hood... that's not coming anywhere near 15Amps. Same goes for my furnace blower and my door bell. So there are 3 circuits that will not add up to 45Amps.

So my point is, you can't just add up the currents of the breakers on each phase, but rather look at the limited breakers (like my examples).

I'm not an electrician, but I do believe most homes are 200Amp service (100Amps per Phase). Your 315Amps sound like the total of all your individual breakers. I'm not sure where your 355A (240V) is coming from... I can't see your stove + your dryer adding up to this.
Title: Re: Phase Coupler
Post by: marineau on December 16, 2006, 06:26:26 AM: Puck:

You have probably reason, My furnace of heating have a 100A breaker and Main is 200A...
I have 20KW element heater inside my furnace. 20,000 / 240 = 83.3Amp

Other exemple: my Refrigerator have a 15A breaker, but his real load is 4Amp

So Truth, each circuit breaker was only installs to protect each one of their wire, and we can't adding all breaker value to know a total capacity but just Theoretical.

Now, we can't forget that our Main Breaker 200A are installed to protect our Main Wire connected to our electricity Company distributor !