X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: agw on August 12, 2007, 03:28:15 AM

Title: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: agw on August 12, 2007, 03:28:15 AM
Sorry for being vague, I'll try to be brief. We installed some X10
wall modules several years ago and promptly didn't use the system :-).
Anyway, we want to get them working now so that we can have them timed
on/off (and use some other modules as well). Note... we also have some of the security modules working as well (door/window sensors, motion detectors), but they don't interact, right?

Looking through the posts on this site, I can see that there are many things to watch out for, my problem right now is (a) I can't get any filters or what-not in the next couple of days (when I'll need this working hopefully), and (b) I don't know where to begin.

Before finding this site, this is what I did (and I've flagged errors/weird things with *****) -- if anybody could point me in the right direction to start figuring this out, that would be greatly appreciated.


My son says we had a small device that used to plug into the serial
port (I can't find that).

Any help would be greatly appreciated (I don't mind being told I'm doing something stupid -- I'm willing to learn :-)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 09:23:17 AM
Most breaker boxes do not have all of one phase together. Every so often they switch phases. That way you can put a ganged set of breakers next to each other for a 230 volt circuit. So you could have a phase thing.
Many surge strips absorb X10 signals. As a test you may want to try the CM11A with no strip as a test. The computer it is connected to if on the same circuit maybe making noise or also absorbing signals. So a Filter maybe needed when you get some.
Have you had a chance to look at some of the great tutorials our members have posted?
Jeff Volp has a great one:  http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Boiler on August 12, 2007, 11:54:41 AM
Expanding a bit on Brian's comments,

The picture below shows the layout of one of my subpanels.  Going from top to bottom on the right side, the breakers alternate phases.  This allows you to plug a 220V breaker in to both phases.  Assuming that your box is numbered the same (not necessarily true),  your #14 circuit would be on the opposite phase from circuits 16 and 24.

You've actually taken some good steps in troubleshooting and generating a layout of your system.  I've attached a truth table of what I believe you have done. 

Here's a summary of what I think you have:

Depending on how populated your breaker box is, you may be able to shift your breakers to the same phase (move the # 16 breaker into the # 18 position).

Have a look at the link Brian provided to Jeff Volp's troubleshooting guide (excellent walk through).

Since you aren't trying to automate your entire home, you may be able to "move around" problem devices and your controlled devices.  To do this you'll need to generate a map of your electrical system and installed loads.  There are some good guides for doing this:

Mapping links: Map/Measure/Correct (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg62635#msg62635)


[TTA Edit: UserID's BOLD PURPLE; LINKs BOLD BLUE. ;) NICE PICTURES! (http://www.x10community.com/forums/Themes/x10theme1/images/post/thumbup.gif) Good things BOLD GREEN; Bad things BOLD RED.]
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 12, 2007, 05:16:28 PM
Quote from: agw on August 12, 2007, 03:28:15 AM
  • 3 wall modules (I2, I3, I4) installed. I2 and I3 are on circuit 14, I4 is on circuit 24 (this is a 24-circuit panel, so these (all on the bottom row) should all be phase 2 I assume)
  • tested wall module I4 - nothing happened *****
  • switched wall module I4 to A1  (just to test for any weirdness)
  • tested again, nothing happened
  • plugged in RR501 Transceiver, set to housecode A (plugged into circuit 16)
  • tested again, nothing happened except the transceiver turned off/on
    (could hear the "CLICK!") *****
  • put A1 back to I4
  • put transceiver to housecode I
  • tested again, nothing happened and the transceiver *didn't* turn off/on *****

Following this chain of events, I believe the reason your RR501 didn't click after you set things back to House Code I is that you were sending X10 signals addressed to I4 and the relay in the RR501 was set to unit code 1 and was therefore listening for I1 at that point.  The only reason it clicked the first time is that you were sending signals addressed to A1 and with the RR501 set to house code A, that would address it's relay as well as the wall switch module which would both have been listening for A1 at that point.  ;)
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 05:50:31 PM
Yes you only have Unit One or Nine [switch marked 1-9] and the House Code on a RR501.
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 12, 2007, 06:05:37 PM
Quote from: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 05:50:31 PM
Yes you only have Unit One or Nine [switch marked 1-9] and the House Code on a RR501.

Yes, I forgot about the switch, thanks.  I edited my post so as not to say always unit 1.
However, I think I did solve the "click / no click" part of aqw's puzzle.   :D
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Walt2 on August 12, 2007, 07:37:51 PM
Quote from: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 05:50:31 PM
Yes you only have Unit One or Nine [switch marked 1-9] and the House Code on a RR501.

It has  been a while, but doesn't that switch also set the RR501 to transceive only unit codes 1 to 8, or 9 to 16?
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Walt2 on August 12, 2007, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: agw on August 12, 2007, 03:28:15 AM
My son says we had a small device that used to plug into the serial
port (I can't find that).


A "Firecracker" ? ? ?  Doesn't X10 come up with the oddest names.  It is also called a CM17A.

(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/1141.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 12, 2007, 10:53:10 PM
Quote from: agw on August 12, 2007, 03:28:15 AM

Looking through the posts on this site, I can see that there are many things to watch out for, my problem right now is:

  • (a) I can't get any filters or what-not in the next couple of days (when I'll need this working hopefully), and
  • (b) I don't know where to begin.

...Any help would be greatly appreciated (I don't mind being told I'm doing something stupid -- I'm willing to learn :-)[/size]

Leaving on vacation, huh? ;)

Begin here (QUOTING from one of my *MANY* TakeTheActive-to-Newbie replies in the Archives):

Without a proper foundation in X10 knowledge and a logical plan-of-action, successfully troubleshooting and solving an X10 problem is like hitting the bullseye on a dart board while throwing the darts BLINDFOLDED (*AFTER* someone randomly spun you around! :D ). But, if you've got money to burn... ::)

Back to your experience level -


Quote from: raygeeknyc on March 05, 2007, 09:05:51 AM

...Is there anything else I can try?

Rather than volley back-and-forth with 'Try this...', 'Didn't work? Well then, try this...', I prefer to get Newbies up to a 'known' knowledge level and then work from there.

For a solid foundation of X10 Operation, please start off by reading:

JV Digital Engineering's X10 Troubleshooting Tutorials Series (http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm) (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_New.gif)

Then:
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg62635#msg62635) - be sure to read the EXCELLENT articles written by JeffVolp and Puck (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_Updated_blue_sm_wte.gif)

Finally, with your CIRCUIT MAP and SIGNAL METER in hand, finish up with:

TTA's X10 Troubleshooting Tips Thread [Updated: 2007/03/05]  (Read 7449 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57582#msg57582)

As both Jeff Volp and I say:

Quote
I understand that most users don't want to hear this but

to have a reliable X10 System requires a substantial upfront investment in time and effort

To Get a Reliable X10 System (and I mean RELIABLE), One Has To Do Some Homework (courtesy of Jeff Volp) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10187.msg58732#msg58732) (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_New.gif)

Have fun and keep us all updated with your progress! :)
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 12, 2007, 10:55:37 PM
Quote from: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 09:23:17 AM

Most breaker boxes do not have all of one phase together. Every so often they switch phases. That way you can put a ganged set of breakers next to each other for a 230 volt circuit....

Most of the boxes I've seen follow some sort of "logical grouping pattern". ;)
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 12, 2007, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: Walt2 on August 12, 2007, 07:37:51 PM

It has  been a while, but doesn't that switch also set the RR501 to transceive only unit codes 1 to 8, or 9 to 16?

That was only the *EARLY* versions, long, long, ago.

Yet another "Same Model Number / Different Firmware / Different Operation" module for Boiler's Database.

P.S. to Boiler - you might get some DATES from the NEWSGROUP: Comp.Home.Automation (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9769.0) and UserID: Dave Houston
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: agw on August 13, 2007, 02:30:23 AM
Thanks all for the pointers... will be going through them to find some logic in my setup :-)

In the meantime, though, and this was just so much fun...

I took my computer and plugged it (and the CM-11A) into the circuit with the I5 module.
The I5 module worked properly, as did the I3, but the I2 didn't. (so, the reverse of the original situation).

Turns out the I3 light (in the kitchen) is in the same circuit as the counter plugs (so, dual phase - phase 1 on top, phase 2 on bottom).

Plugged computer and CM-11A into a countertop outlet, plugged RR501 into the I5 circuit.

They all work now :-) (and yes, this is a kludge -- I'll be doing some reading on the links you all gave me, so that I can do things properly when time allows).


Thanks again, all of you!
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Walt2 on August 13, 2007, 07:59:49 AM
Quote from: agw on August 13, 2007, 02:30:23 AM

Plugged computer and CM-11A into a countertop outlet, plugged RR501 into the I5 circuit.

They all work now :-) (and yes, this is a kludge -- I'll be doing some reading on the links you all gave me, so that I can do things properly when time allows).


I don't think of that as a kludge.  I think of that as a solution.

For me, I keep my CM15A plugged into an outlet in my breakfast nook.   That outlet seems to be the most "central" in my house.  At that outlet, I can "see" all X10 powerline commands from all other controllers in my house, and from that outlet, X10 powerline commands can reach all modules in my house.

BTW, if you truly have outlets that the top is one phase and the bottom is the other phase, I believe that is a code violation.
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: JeffVolp on August 13, 2007, 10:08:26 AM
Quote
BTW, if you truly have outlets that the top is one phase and the bottom is the other phase, I believe that is a code violation.

I haven't found anything in the NEC saying this is against the code.  The code does state that the kitchen counter area must be supplied with two 20A circuits.  I remember years ago that split wiring those receptacles was encouraged so two high-current loads could be plugged into the same duplex receptacle.  Of course, that is harder to do than just daisy-chaining 12-2 to several outlets, so it was probably an "upgrade feature".

Jeff
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Walt2 on August 13, 2007, 10:44:49 AM
I know someone who failed an electric inspection for doing this.  I was going by that, and not exactly quoting something written.

The "code", lately, seems to be more to protect idiots, and I can see such getting 240v unexpectedly out of a 120v outlet with some creative plugging.

Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: steven r on August 13, 2007, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Walt2 on August 13, 2007, 10:44:49 AM
I know someone who failed an electric inspection for doing this....
Might of been some local code then.

Quote from: Walt2 on August 13, 2007, 10:44:49 AM
...The "code", lately, seems to be more to protect idiots, and I can see such getting 240v unexpectedly out of a 120v outlet with some creative plugging.
It would take a very creative idiot to get 220 V out of a properly wired split outlet wired from separate phases.

On the other hand, idiots have been know to do many a thing a genus didn't just because they didn't know it was suppose to be impossible.

Never under estimate the power of an idiot.
Title: Re: Hoping for some pointers on how to figure out using X10
Post by: Brian H on August 13, 2007, 04:12:26 PM
The switch on the RR501 sets the unit address for the internal relay to 1 or 9. Tranceives all 16 units.