X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: DIYguy on May 29, 2009, 04:26:23 PM
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Common problem everyones heard before....
Extensive X10 installation working for years quits working.
If nothing new added must be something existing that died or is now generating line noise. I don't have the time or option to unplug everything in the house and start adding back plus there are about seventeen SR227 receptacles modules installed.
What is the most cost effective tool for metering line noise and signal strength that I can use to determine amount of and source of line noise? Couple of meters I looked up are discontinued, others are several hundred dollars. What advise as to best bang for the buck for solving these kind of problems?
JJ
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Let's try a different question. I'm looking at two testers
X10 Test Transceiver http://www.smarthome.com/2200ATT/X10-Multi-Tester-Test-Transceiver/p.aspx (http://www.smarthome.com/2200ATT/X10-Multi-Tester-Test-Transceiver/p.aspx)
X10 Powerline Signal Analyzer http://www.smarthome.com/4814/X10-Powerline-Signal-Analyzer-XPSA/p.aspx (http://www.smarthome.com/4814/X10-Powerline-Signal-Analyzer-XPSA/p.aspx)
Does anyone have experience with either of these or different analyzers they can recommend. I need to get my X10 system back up as soon as possible and can't find the source of line noise.
I did notice one thing I thought strange. On the AHP screen for "Find Other Computers" The "A" channel has a couple red addresses and the rest are yellow except for the few that are actual device address (green). The rest of the channels are OK except "P". P1 is red and all the rest of the address are yellow. I have no devices on the "P" channel. Anyone have an idea why the "P" channel would be the one that seems to have so much noise?
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Is it P16?
I believe P16 is used by one of the X10 devices and AHP flags it even if you are not using it.
I don't have any information on the devices you linked to and the ones you may have looked at and are discontinued ELK ESM-1 and Smarthome TesterLinc are the ones I use.
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Common problem everyones heard before....
Extensive X10 installation working for years quits working.
If nothing new added must be something existing that died or is now generating line noise. I don't have the time or option to unplug everything in the house and start adding back plus there are about seventeen SR227 receptacles modules installed.
FWIW
Never used any of the meters you are looking for evaluations on in your second post. I have success with the now defunct ESM-1. However http://www.automatedoutlet.com/ will loan ESM-1s for use.
Can you turn off your breakers one by one and see if X10 control returns? It is easier to unplug suspect noise makers if you can isolate to a branch.
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I have one of the now discontinued ELK ESM-1 testers that I like a lot.
Many of us are looking forward to JeffVolp having time to finish the design of his tester. Like his other products, I expect it to be excellent value and even better than many of the testers out there at least the ESM-1 for sure. I for one expect to retire mine when he releases his tester.
JeffVolp: Not to rush you but any ETA on your tester?
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Been swapping e-mails with Jeff. His last e-mails looks like fall for his tester (Jeff to confirm)
Since all the recommended testers, ESM-1 etc are discontinued I bit the bullet and just ordered the Monterey X10 signal analyzer @ $359 Also leaning towards Jeff's XTB-IIR
JJ
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Please give us the low down on the Monterey Tester after you have a chance to use it.
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JeffVolp: Not to rush you but any ETA on your tester?
Yes, the target is still this fall. The hardware was working several months ago, but I haven't had any time to work on the firmware over the last several months. The 100+ summer temperatures will keep me inside most days, so that should give me time to complete the firmware.
Jeff
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Yeah, but it's a dry heat. rofl
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Yeah, but it's a dry heat. rofl
Unlike our humid summers down here. :(
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Received my X10 Signal Analyzer, five additional XPPF filters and XTB-IIR Friday, spent Saturday working on wiring. Soon as I plugged in the signal analyzer I was reading BSC error (Bad Start Code) and a lot of line noise. Started killing circuits one by one and was still getting the error. Discovered among other noise generators, the cabinet lights in my wine bar cabinets were pumping noise into the system. This only came into play as I was using that cabinet and lights as a work station to start with. Turn the lights off, noise stops. Turn lights on meter goes nuts. Microwave when running pumps out noise. Metal halide lights on reef tank only put out noise while the bulbs are initially firing up. Still not sure if the InsteOn BosterLinc was fighting with the XTB-IIR, but I removed the BosterLinc to be sure. Thought I had everything dialed in and working so finished hooking my outdoor floods to ToggleLinc and motion. Lights worked OK manually, set-up meter and tested and got major line noise, BSC error. @%#$!! thought the ToggleLinc was messed up. Killed power to that circuit and still had noise. Started pulling every InsteOn device, still had noise. Killed half the circuits in the house, still had noise. *%$@#!! Walked out to the shop to get another tool to start removing stuff and walked into a full lit shop. Six, 4-bulb fluorescent ceiling mounted light fixtures fired up while running test. Flipped the light switch, went back and checked meter and all's good. Started turning on and plugging in and still good. Went out, turned lights on and wack-O! Looks like I need to isolate the power line to the shop from the rest of the system, those light fixtures are over $500 an not an option to change.
None of this explains why the system completely failed originally as none of the above where on during the time the system completely shut down. Still helps finding the gremlins but only part of the mystery. Especially since the system would not run at all for nearly a week. Still not sure what the one magic bullet was that killed the system but now have ammunition to fight back.
Have some comments and opinions for the Monterey Power Line Signal Analyzer but think that should be a separate thread. Might be worthwhile in the future for anyone else going through the same challenges.
JJ
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I put two of those new 4-bulb fluorescent fixtures in the rec-room suspended ceiling. They have electronic ballasts, and the ESM1 lights up a bar whenever they are on. Yes, the solution is to isolate them with a filter.
Jeff
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I've pulled up info to order inline filters but before I did, searched other posts for fluorescent line noise. Looks like the XPNR I was thinking of isn't the right choice for my fluorescent lights. I have six ceiling mounted four bulb light fixtures with T8 bulbs. These are hard wired on a three-way circuit using ToggleLinc non-dimming X10 wall switches (#23893) with companion switch. All six light fixtures are on a dedicated circuit at the subpanel in my shop.
Based on previous posts, is the Leviton #6287 filter connected to the load side of the wall switch between the switch and the first fixture the best filter?
Jeff, what did you use?
JJ
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No, I don't think the XPNR is the right choice for your noise problem. The Leviton 6287 is only rated at 5A, so that may not handle six 4-bulb fixtures. You could split the load between two of them, or choose the larger XPF, which is rated 20A. I use one of those here for our "electronics" circuit. That filter is pretty big, and needs a triple-gang box.
I seem to recall a recent post from someone who said the XPF didn't solve his fluorescent light problem, so there is no guarantee it will definitely solve yours. Some of these noise sources are pretty tough to deal with. Most manufacturers don't care. It is all about maximizing the bottom line.
Here I used the Leviton 6287 for most lighting circuits. My two 4-bulb fixtures are not yet filtered, and they do light up one bar on the ESM1 whenever they are on. I haven't bothered to filter them because they are on the end of a circuit, and not much of that noise gets back to the distribution panel.
Jeff
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Received my X10 Signal Analyzer, five additional XPPF filters and XTB-IIR Friday, spent Saturday working on wiring. Soon as I plugged in the signal analyzer I was reading BSC error (Bad Start Code) and a lot of line noise...
Hi DIYguy,
Your Monterey analyzer diagnostics sound similar to the Smarthome Testerlinc. That being the case, don't drive yourself nuts trying to eliminate BSC (Bad Start Codes) and BCY (Bad 3-cycle gap) diagnostics. My testerlinc regularly produces these when used with any of my CM15a's (I have 3).
Also beware that Insteon will show up as noise and will produce the same BSC/BCY diagnostics.
Two words regarding using a Boosterlinc along with Insteon - Ditch it. I've tried two Boosterlincs with my Insteon system (both "Insteon Blessed" versions). Both would invariably get into a mode where they were trying to repeat Insteon communications and would corrupt the whole installation. These work fine for X10 only installs.
Boiler
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Interesting to get another opinion on the BoosterLinc. There have been a few occasions when I noticed the status lights on the InsteOn devices flickering rapidly. When this happens I end up unplugging all the InsteOn devices and then reinstalling them (AccessPoints and LampLincs). I had the BoosterLinc plugged in during these times, got suspicious and finally left it unplugged. $100 booster currently in the parts pile. Has anyone else had conflicts between InsteOn and X10? They claim completely compatible living in harmony, allegedly complementing each other. I'm still experimenting with the stuff. Four InsteOn ToggleLincs v2, Access points, LampLincs and remote. So far the only thing the InsteOn remote will talk to are the two LampLincs. I can NOT get the remote to link with the ToggleLincs which is frustrating as that was part of the idea for remote light switches.
JJ
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Interesting to get another opinion on the BoosterLinc. There have been a few occasions when I noticed the status lights on the InsteOn devices flickering rapidly. When this happens I end up unplugging all the InsteOn devices and then reinstalling them (AccessPoints and LampLincs). I had the BoosterLinc plugged in during these times, got suspicious and finally left it unplugged. $100 booster currently in the parts pile. Has anyone else had conflicts between InsteOn and X10? They claim completely compatible living in harmony, allegedly complementing each other. I'm still experimenting with the stuff. Four InsteOn ToggleLincs v2, Access points, LampLincs and remote. So far the only thing the InsteOn remote will talk to are the two LampLincs. I can NOT get the remote to link with the ToggleLincs which is frustrating as that was part of the idea for remote light switches.
JJ
DIYguy,
Just to be clear, I have not had problems with compatibility between X10 and Insteon other than the additional loading that the Insteon devices present on the powerline. I've been running a mixed system since Insteon first came out.
My problems have been specific to the Boosterlinc which is strange since the device is made by Smarthome. Smarthome has replaced one of my boosterlincs multiple times in an effort to "correct" the problem. Each device would, after a time, begin stepping on Insteon communications.
(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/I2/boosterlinc.jpg)(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/I2/no_boosterlinc.jpg)
It's interesting that you're having problems linking your RemoteLinc to the ToggleLincs. The procedure should be the same as the LampLincs. I have to admit that I haven't manually linked with the Remotelinc in 2 years since I purchased a Universal Devices ISY-26 (it's a dream).
If your ToggleLincs are very new ('09) it's possible that they use Extended Messaging during linking. If that's the case, you might try moving a Accesspoint to the same circuit to improve communication during the linking process. Once the linking is successful, you can move the AP back to it's original location (Extended messaging is only used during Linking).
Boiler
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More ingredients to toss into the automation stew.
Boiler, you mentioned InsteOn signals will produce BSC and BCY reports on the tester. I have been getting a mix of these reports but still getting module activation (compliments of Jeff's XTB-IIR maybe?) These reports usually accompany a RF command showing up on the meter. Another interesting challenge is the latest lighting. Sunday I added a series of incandescent 45 watt flood lights under the deck area. These floods are tied into signals from the motion detecting floods which send a signal to the indoor chimes. The floods are set to the same address as the chimes so when the outdoor floods activate, the under deck floods come on and the chimes sound. Works as intended. I installed a ToggleLinc wall switch (#23893) to control the flood lights and respond to X10 commands. Works as intended. Also installed a Hawkeye motion sensor (#MS14A) under the deck to activate the floods. So far not working as intended. The point of interest is the ToggleLinc switch is X10 only, not the new InsteOn series but this model includes BoosterLinc. This evening I was doing some diagnostics and plugged the signal analyzer into the same circuit as several devices being tested (garden room circuit). This circuit has a couple low voltage outdoor light transformers installed controlled with SR227 receptacles. Using the Palm remote I went through seven different lighting options and all worked fine. Analyzer was going nuts with BSC readings and I thought it was the low voltage transforms but it wasn't. Isolated it to the incandescent floods connected to the ToggleLinc. Since this ToggleLinc includes BoosterLinc, could the signal boosting be causing a BSC noise reading when the lights are on? Never had an incandescent bulb, even floods cause interference so the only know variable is the the BoosterLinc option. During X10 addressing I did use the address/on function which enables the BoosterLinc option. Haven't tried reprogramming the switch while disableling the BoosterLinc yet. Haven't made it that far...
X10 BoosterLinc causing BSC readings?
JJ
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Many of you know that X10 data is sent as 1mS long bursts of 120KHz immediately following each zero crossing of the powerline. Presence of a burst is decoded as a logic "1", absence as a logic "0". The X10 start code is "1-1-1-0", which is sent a sequence of 3 bursts on successive half cycles, followed by a half cycle gap. Data is sent as complimentary bit pairs following the start pattern.
Insteon commands are sent as a series of modulated bursts of 131KHz that straddle successive half cycles. A X10 device would decode that as an extended series of "1"'s, which would be indicated as a bad start code by a X10 meter.
Jeff
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Yes as Jeff said. Insteon signals start Before the Zero Crossing and continue after it passes. Both my ESM1 and TesterLincs show errors with Insteon signals. My ACT CR134 X10 signal repeater flashes its ERROR LED also.
Blessed BoosterLincs have also been reported as still being a problem.
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DIYguy,
Jeff has pretty much nailed the X10 response to Insteon commands so I'll focus on the CM15a. My Testerlinc does regularly produce BCY and BSC codes during CM15a Extended Code transmissions. I get an occasional BCY code during standard X10 transmissions. The CM15a transmits extended code messages for LM14a 2-way lamp modules. If you are using newer X10 switches and lamp modules with the soft start feature, you should be using the LM14a module interface within AHP to alleviate possible problems. The problem here is that your Insteon units will not understand the Extended code transmissions. Smarthome never implemented the revised X10 protocol which includes the Extended code direct dim commands.
I have seen a number of people report the BCY/BSC codes with the CM15a over the years and have never seen a satisfactory explanation. The CM15a may be shorting the 3-cycle gap that is specified by the X10 protocol. During extended code transmissions, the testerlinc may be getting confused by a protocol that really isn't in it's repertoire. Regardless, all of my X10 units respond correctly and both my ELK-ESM1 and the Testerlinc show 0 line noise.
My point in all of this was that the BCY/BSC codes may be normal depending on the type of communication you are using with the CM15a. If the codes are present only during valid X10 transmissions, and all of your units function, I would write them off as an anomaly. If the BCY/BSC codes are continuous you either have a looping X10 command (stuck repeater loop) or noise that is being interpreted as BCY/BSC codes. Your Monterey has a noise mode that presents a measurment 120Khz noise present around the zero crossing of the AC line. What is it telling you?
Regarding your Boosterlinc enabled Toggleinc, I would certainly try disabling the Boost feature in the switch. I do not have direct experience with these devices since I replaced all of my older boosterlinc devices with Insteon some years ago (didn't use Insteon with the Boosterlinc switches).
Boiler
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I believe I also got some of those when my ACT CR134 was set to repeat known repeated signals. rofl