X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Acam on June 29, 2009, 10:21:11 AM
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I want to control my bedroom ceiling fan, what switch will I need to utilize? I am aware that the standard switch is not recommended to be used with motors.
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If you want to control the fan's speed you will need the inductive "dimmer" XPDI3, however this switch may make your fan motor hum or buzz. I used one for our bedroom and found the hum objectionable when trying to sleep but was not bothersome in a livingroom, family room, etc. application.
If you do not need to control speed or don't like a humming fan motor the XPS3 will provide only OFF-ON control.
Both these switches require a neutral line to work.
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I have a similar question. I have a Hunter ceiling fan with lights on it. Currently it is controlled with an on/off wall switch and this remote.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=227793-79-27148&lpage=none
It does the fans 3 speeds plus lights on and off and dimmer option. All this is done from a single gang wall switch. Is there any X10 part I can replace it with that will control the fan speeds and the lights within the single gang box?
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I have a similar question. I have a Hunter ceiling fan with lights on it. Currently it is controlled with an on/off wall switch and this remote.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=227793-79-27148&lpage=none
It does the fans 3 speeds plus lights on and off and dimmer option. All this is done from a single gang wall switch. Is there any X10 part I can replace it with that will control the fan speeds and the lights within the single gang box?
Unfortunately, X10 does not make anything simple to do what you want. B:( B:( B:( B:( I've got the same problem, same type of fan. You need a double gang box and two separate wire runs to do what we both want, plus two modules one to control the fan itself and a second one to control the lights. Too much like a major project to do it. B:( B:(
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how about using 2 in line modules either XPDF & XPFM
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You STLL need a double gang box and a extra wire run. B:(
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If I remember correctly, I have a 3 conductor with a ground leaving the wall switch going to the fan. Black Red Whit. Could I use this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/x10-pro-inline-receiver-module-xp.html at the fan box
with the red and white(neutral) for the fan just for on and off and this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/ws12a.html
at the wall switch for the light using the black and white for the lights??
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how about using 2 in line modules either XPDF & XPFM and put them in the fan
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If I remember correctly, I have a 3 conductor with a ground leaving the wall switch going to the fan. Black Red Whit. Could I use this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/x10-pro-inline-receiver-module-xp.html at the fan box
with the red and white(neutral) for the fan just for on and off and this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/ws12a.html
at the wall switch for the light using the black and white for the lights??
jfaska is suggesting a fix that worked well for me, but to answer your question. Yes that would work. Although I would swap the wire colors making Black which would be hot all the time the feed for the inline appliance module. Then use red for the wall mounted dimmer switch feeding the lights.
But heck if I had neutral, plus two lines to fan for independant light and motor control, why not put a double gang box in wall so you could have X10 wall switch control for both fan and light?
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If I remember correctly, I have a 3 conductor with a ground leaving the wall switch going to the fan. Black Red Whit. Could I use this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/x10-pro-inline-receiver-module-xp.html at the fan box
with the red and white(neutral) for the fan just for on and off and this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/ws12a.html
at the wall switch for the light using the black and white for the lights??
jfaska is suggesting a fix that worked well for me, but to answer your question. Yes that would work. Although I would swap the wire colors making Black which would be hot all the time the feed for the inline appliance module. Then use red for the wall mounted dimmer switch feeding the lights.
But heck if I had neutral, plus two lines to fan for independant light and motor control, why not put a double gang box in wall so you could have X10 wall switch control for both fan and light?
Cool, the reason for no double gang is that the wall it is on is kind of stepped out to the door and not very wide.I think I could cut the studs a bit to force a double gang in there but then the cover plate would hit the joining wall on one side and hang out over the edge on the other. The wall is shaped like this _|¯ and I don't want to cut down a wall plate just to make it work. Looks like crap IMO.
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If I remember correctly, I have a 3 conductor with a ground leaving the wall switch going to the fan. Black Red Whit. Could I use this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/x10-pro-inline-receiver-module-xp.html at the fan box
with the red and white(neutral) for the fan just for on and off and this
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/ws12a.html
at the wall switch for the light using the black and white for the lights??
Hello Manowar,
The XPFM that you linked to above is an inline relay module. As Dave W indicated, your wiring configuration will work, but you will not be able to control Fan Speeds (On/Off only). I wasn't sure if that was your intent.
Some users have had problems with the XPFM turning back on after receiving an off command. It appears that some fan motors generate enough back EMF to trick the XPFM's sense circuit into re-activating the module. This only occurs with certain fan motors and typically when the fan is set to lower speeds.
You may want to re-arrange your configuration and use a true relay switch (XPS3) or inductive dimmer (XPDI3) for the fan and a inline dimmer (XPDF) for the lamps.
Since you only have a single gang box available, yet another option would be an Insteon Keypadlinc relay module - albeit far more expensive. The Insteon units can be programmed to receive and transmit X10 Codes. The KPL relay could be wired to directly control your fan using the main On/Off buttons. A secondary button ("A" for instance) could then be programmed to control a XPDF inline dimmer for lamp control. This is the only way I can think of of putting all the controls in a single gang box.
KPL Relay Link:Kepadlinc Relay (http://www.smarthome.com/2486SWH6/KeypadLinc-Relay-INSTEON-6-Button-Scene-Control-Keypad-with-On-Off-Switch-Non-Dimming-White/p.aspx)
I don't currently know of any way to accomplish fan speed control/lamp dimming using single gang box.
Boiler
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Boiler. That is just what I'm looking for. I can use the normal XPS3 for the fan (I don't care about fan speed. I keep it on low) and the XPDF for the dimmer up at the fans ceiling box. I wired this fan myself and left slack in the ceiling in a junction box. Now I just gotta make sure the fan itself has different hot wires for the fan and light. :)%
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The XPS3 needs a Neutral wire to work. Make sure you have a neutral.
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The XPS3 needs a Neutral wire to work. Make sure you have a neutral.
I do. Just gonna have to rerun the wire from the switch to the fan. It's 14/2 not 14/3 but that will be easy. I did it once already.
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Ok, I got the WS12A and the XPFM installed after I ran a 14/3 to the fan and it all works but I am getting that fan switching back on at low speed issue. I decided I wanted the light switch on the wall to work the light not the fan. I have an idea to fix it though. Since the noise is causing it, what is the chances that me moving the XPFM down to the switch on the wall will stop the noise? Is the noise from the motor going to travel down the wire if I put the inline relay at my wall switch or is it because it's up in the fan housing?
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Since the noise is causing it, what is the chances that me moving the XPFM down to the switch on the wall will stop the noise? Is the noise from the motor going to travel down the wire if I put the inline relay at my wall switch or is it because it's up in the fan housing?
Doubtful. The theory is back EMF from the fan motor causes the Local Control circuit in the appliance module to turn the load back on. I have the same problem and my appliance module is mounted on the fan switch wall plate which is about 15 feet from the motor. I have never tried to fix the problem as it only happens on low speed, which we do not use.
If it IS noise you should be able to fix with an in-line noise filter. Local Control feature is causing the problem is going to be harder to fix. If it is a newer Appliance Module (XPFMs are Appliance Modules on the inside) I don't know if anyone has figured how to disable the feature. On older modules the feature can be defeated by cutting a diode near the output side of the latching relay. Google "Appliance Module" "Local COntrol" for web sites with instructions. Here is Ido's X10 page http://idobartana.com/hakb/ which has directions for an older style module.
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It does stop when I put the fan on high but that is too fast for my bedroom. It's more of an annoyance since the fan stays on 24/7 anyway but I hate not having things perfect.
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Ok, I found this box extension.
http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308
I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?
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Ok, I found this box extension.
http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308
I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?
To the best of my knowledge, the XPS3 does not have a sense circuit like the XPFM. It should not respond to back EMF from the fan.
Rather than using a low voltage box extension, please look into a dual gang retrofit box. If you're cutting the drywall anyway, why not do the job to code?
Another possible solution would be to replace the XPFM with a Smarthome InlineLinc relay unit. I've used these on a couple of fans without any back-EMF problems. Although they are Insteon units, they can be programmed with an X10 address so that they respond the same as your XPFM. They are more $$, and you will need to program them by sending a X10 ON command 3X (i.e. you need some sort of controller - AHP can do this).
InlincLinc: InlineLinc Manual (http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2475S2-qsg.pdf)
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Ok, I found this box extension.
http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308
I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?
To the best of my knowledge, the XPS3 does not have a sense circuit like the XPFM. It should not respond to back EMF from the fan.
Rather than using a low voltage box extension, please look into a dual gang retrofit box. If you're cutting the drywall anyway, why not do the job to code?
Another possible solution would be to replace the XPFM with a Smarthome InlineLinc relay unit. I've used these on a couple of fans without any back-EMF problems. Although they are Insteon units, they can be programmed with an X10 address so that they respond the same as your XPFM. They are more $$, and you will need to program them by sending a X10 ON command 3X (i.e. you need some sort of controller - AHP can do this).
InlincLinc: InlineLinc Manual (http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2475S2-qsg.pdf)
I'd love to use a dual gang retrofit but the existing box is nailed to the stud and the wires feed in from below and go out the top. I'd have to cut the dry wall above and below it also to get it out and I don't want to patch it. My wife painted the room some weird color and I don't want to patch, and and paint when I can just cut the side a bit and run the wires over and be done in a few minutes. Lazy I know. ;D
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If your current box is plastic you should be able to "dice it" out of the wall with a drill/hole saw.
If the current box is metal, take a close look at the inside - if it's a RACO box (or similar) with square corners it should be expandable. If the internal corners are rounded you're out of luck.
Expandable box Link: RACO Expandable Box (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100548372&N=10000003+90300+500026)
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It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.
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It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.
Manowar,
After you mentioned the posts regarding the XPS3's I searched myself - yep, you're correct. What's worse is I was involved in a couple of those threads and completely forgot about it (the mind is the first this to ...).
Anyway, I said it back in '07 and I'll repeat it now - a relay switch should not have this problem. I can see absolutely no go reason for having a load sense circuit on the output of a relay wall switch. Still, we have the obvious reports of problems. I can't argue with these facts. There appears to be something in the "newer" XPS3's that allows them to be fooled into turning back on when used with some fans (at some speeds).
From now on I'll stop suggesting what should work and rely on what I have recent first hand experience with -
I am using Smarthome Icon and Switchlinc relay switches on both Hunter and Harbor Breeze fans. I have had zero problems with any of these (5) fans at any speed.
I've used the Inlinelinc relay module at a friends installation (2 fans - don't know the make).
Sorry if I lead you down a path...
Boiler
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It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.
Manowar,
After you mentioned the posts regarding the XPS3's I searched myself - yep, you're correct. What's worse is I was involved in a couple of those threads and completely forgot about it (the mind is the first this to ...).
Anyway, I said it back in '07 and I'll repeat it now - a relay switch should not have this problem. I can see absolutely no go reason for having a load sense circuit on the output of a relay wall switch. Still, we have the obvious reports of problems. I can't argue with these facts. There appears to be something in the "newer" XPS3's that allows them to be fooled into turning back on when used with some fans (at some speeds).
From now on I'll stop suggesting what should work and rely on what I have recent first hand experience with -
I am using Smarthome Icon and Switchlinc relay switches on both Hunter and Harbor Breeze fans. I have had zero problems with any of these (5) fans at any speed.
I've used the Inlinelinc relay module at a friends installation (2 fans - don't know the make).
Sorry if I lead you down a path...
Boiler
No need to apologize at all. I'm still learning this stuff and any info helps. I'm gonna try the XPS3 down next to the WS12A with that extension ring box thing. Worst case scenario I take the X10 part out and use a regular decor wall switch. Like I said the fan stays on 24/7 anyway. I'm gonna try some fire alarm parts my company uses for noise reduction and see if any of them work. I've got a LOT of experience with noisy circuits in my job and some solutions we've found have been off the wall to say the least but they've worked. If the XPS3 does the same thing then I'm gonna take the XPFM and send it in to my companies engineers and have them look at it off the clock. They worked miracles for me in the past. This is a great site and the best resource I've found. Just what I've learned here since starting X10 has helped me tons so far. #:)
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Your engineers will most likely find a very small AC current flowing into the load even when off.
The electronics has to know if the alternating relay/ switch is on or off. So if an on is seen on the address and it is on now. It will not pulse the switch to off by mistake. This small current is a result of this circuit. I removed mine in an appliance module and it got confused. Pulsed the switch about three times like a machine gun before giving up. rofl
Some have added a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the load to squash this current. 47K is the lowest I would go if needed as that would give you about 1/3 watt of power in a 1/2 Watt resistor.
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Your engineers will most likely find a very small AC current flowing into the load even when off.
The electronics has to know if the alternating relay/ switch is on or off. So if an on is seen on the address and it is on now. It will not pulse the switch to off by mistake. This small current is a result of this circuit. I removed mine in an appliance module and it got confused. Pulsed the switch about three times like a machine gun before giving up. rofl
Some have added a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the load to squash this current. 47K is the lowest I would go if needed as that would give you about 1/3 watt of power in a 1/2 Watt resistor.
So I just put a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the blue and white at the device right.
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I had another thought. Is there any reason I can't put a XPS3 with the same address as the XPFM down at the wall switch next to my WS12A and keep the XPFM up in the fan housing. The XPS3 would be breaking the black feeding the XPFM when the OFF command is sent so it couldn't come back on. It would work right?
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I had another thought. Is there any reason I can't put a XPS3 with the same address as the XPFM down at the wall switch next to my WS12A and keep the XPFM up in the fan housing. The XPS3 would be breaking the black feeding the XPFM when the OFF command is sent so it couldn't come back on. It would work right?
Hello Manowar,
I'm sorry, but this is not a good idea on a number of levels. The XPFM is an electronic device and is not designed to be continuously power cycled. The XPFM does have some protection in the form of filtering/transient suppression, however using the XPS3 to remove/reapply power is not a controlled event. I think you would be significantly reducing the life of the XPFM.
Aside from the above, for an off command you would wind up with a race condition between the XPFM and XPS3. I don't know if the XPFM relay would release if power was in the process of going down.
For an on sequence, your XPFM would be unpowered and would not hear the X10 command.
There are a number of other problems as well, but the above are what leaps to mind.
I would strongly recommend against this,
Boiler
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Yeah, I sort of figured it would. I've got an XPS3 coming in the mail so I'm gonna try that down at the light switch first and see if it does the same thing. Can't hurt trying. If nothing else I'll just put a normal decor switch in to turn it off all they way when I need to. Thanks everyone for all the replies.
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Yes the load is Blue and White. I believe Boiler was the one who has used 220K resistors on some module.
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Yes the load is Blue and White. I believe Boiler was the one who has used 220K resistors on some module.
Brian,
I don't remember using the 220K load resistor in a fan application (but then I've forgotten a lot). Whatever the value, it would need to be sufficient to counteract the fan motor back EMF. I've never attempted to actually measure the back EMF from one of these fan motors, so I'm not sure where the 220K came from.
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OK I may also be getting a brain fade :'. Maybe it was Old Timer?
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If I put in an XPDI3 instead of the XPS3 for the fan would it have the same problem? I'm assuming since it's a dimmer module with soft start it would start up slow to high and shut off the same way so it wouldn't click back on right? I just turn it on then down to the speed I want and it will remember it when I turn it off and back on like a WS12A does. Is this right? I know there is a possibility of fan hum with dimmers.
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If I put in an XPDI3 instead of the XPS3 for the fan would it have the same problem? I'm assuming since it's a dimmer module with soft start it would start up slow to high and shut off the same way so it wouldn't click back on right? I just turn it on then down to the speed I want and it will remember it when I turn it off and back on like a WS12A does. Is this right? I know there is a possibility of fan hum with dimmers.
Perhaps someone will elaborate on the electrical dangers but an X10 dimmer and most, if not all standard dimmer switches, should never be used for a fan. The fans are not designed to work on a variable voltage. Each speed setting of the fan switches to a specific wiring in the fan for the respective speed.
It is more than just a possible hum issue.
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If I put in an XPDI3 instead of the XPS3 for the fan would it have the same problem? I'm assuming since it's a dimmer module with soft start it would start up slow to high and shut off the same way so it wouldn't click back on right? I just turn it on then down to the speed I want and it will remember it when I turn it off and back on like a WS12A does. Is this right? I know there is a possibility of fan hum with dimmers.
Perhaps someone will elaborate on the electrical dangers but an X10 dimmer and most, if not all standard dimmer switches, should never be used for a fan. The fans are not designed to work on a variable voltage. Each speed setting of the fan switches to a specific wiring in the fan for the respective speed.
It is more than just a possible hum issue.
XPDI3 is made for inductive loads. I use them on fans now. However, it do make the fan a hummer.
Although $100, this PLC fan switch will reactivly (capacitors) change the fan speeds, so is humless http://www.hometech.com/modules/loswitch.html#LO-CCWHISPW
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I like that one. Money isn't the issue. I checked out the pdf and it shows a remote wire plus the hot neutral and load. Any idea what that is for? I assume for a 3 way switch as the traveler. The other thing is it says "All Compose Dimmers and Masters require a neutral connection.
DO NOT USE A COMMON NEUTRAL CONNECTION." What other kind of neutral is there? All I've ever seen is the whites all wire nutted together pushed into the back of the box.
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Manowar,
The terminology "common neutral", as I've seen it applied, refers the 3 phase systems that are normally not found in homes.
Here's a link to a Lutron tech bulletin on switching noise on common neutral systems: Luton App Note #17 (http://www.lutron.com/CMS400/TechInfoPage.aspx?id=19607)
While this should not apply to you, poor connections on the hot/neutral can produce similar crosstalk and are a common cause of dimmer interaction.
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Cool Boiler. Thanks. It makes sense after reading it.
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I checked out the pdf and it shows a remote wire plus the hot neutral and load. Any idea what that is for? I assume for a 3 way switch as the traveler.
Yes, it is a traveller wire for a companion switch.
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Wall switch gets hot! switch is running on/off ceiling fan and fan lights, what am I doing wrong?
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If the wall switch is a dimmer type and running the fan motor. Both the motor and the switch can be damaged.
Since it is getting hot {slightly warm is normal}. It sounds like you are trying to run a fan motor on a dimmer type switch.
The fan motor can be controlled by a nondimming relay type switch and the fans light can be on a dimmer type switch.
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Which is why I suggested that X10 make a combined lamp/appliance module for fan/light control.
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Are all wall switches from X-10 dimmer type? Is there another type programable wall switch that I can use with X-10?
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The X10 WS13A is a decorator type for things like fans and low voltage lights.
Does not dim and requires a neutral power wire to work.
http://www.x10.com/automation/ws13a_s.html
The X10Pro XPS3 is their version of the WS13A and the XPDi3 is a dimmer type that works with SOME fan motors but you have to verify it working correctly. Both need a neutral if memory serves me.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/catalog/receivers.html#wire